A rather impotent response, don't you think?

-CDT

Russell Simmons talks of hip hop as a way to "speak the truth". Crouch refers to rap artists who do not aim for truth, but earn their money spewing misoginistic, lewd, crime-glamorizing garbage. Like any of today's media that influence our youth, there are those that do it well, with a positive impact, and those that don't.

The best video on the internet this year was Soulja Boy's response to Ice-T dissing him in the intro to someone else's track. The great part about this video is how long it takes Soulja Boy to get serious--he repeatedly starts out a sentence (or paragraph) with a straight face, only to crack up and end with "you old as hell for real" or some other such insult. This goes on for several minutes before he finally calms down enough to respond to the most bombastic of Ice-T's insults--the statement that Soulja Boy "single-handedly killed hip hop." Soulja Boy retorts that if hip hop is dead, then quit whining and revive it (Lil Wayne subsequently took care of that on "Dr. Carter"). He criticizes Ice-T--an elder statesman of rap if there ever was one--for attacking the young people who are pushing the game forward. He cites being the breadwinner in his family at age 17 because of his success.
The argument about hip hop is not an argument, from within or without. Sociological issues of parenting or the lack thereof don't have to do with whether or not music is good. Rap is inherently competitive, and even the "sensitive, intellectual" rappers like Kanye (cough) build their dissertation on the thesis that they are the best shit in the world, anybody got a problem with that? If people are banging it in their Honda Civics, the rest is academic. Academic is different from intellectual and decidedly not a hip hop attribute. If anybody thinks they can do better than what's out there now, put your money where your mouth is and get in the game. Otherwise you are, in the words of my city's Dem Franchize Boyz, talking out the side of your neck... and I can't hear you.

Thank you for responding to Crouch's (C Dolores) Tuckeresque slandering of hip-hop. Equating all rappers, from Eminem to The Roots, from Lil' Wayne to Immortal Technique, is embarassingly ignorant, and just makes him seem OLD. And simply uninformed. One shouldn't opine so strongly on a subject one (seems to) know nothing about.

I grew up on hip-hop, from Rappers Delight on, and I too am not overly impressed with modern day "hip-pop", but great music IS being made by many rap artists if you look for it; and not on Mtv. The genre has probably seen better days in terms of subject matter, but hip hop goes in cycles and trends, and I'm betting great lyrics will return soon. Again, thanks for your response, it was much needed.

The content in hip-hop seemed always to be a reflection of the low-level of education and refinement made available to the artists sharing common circumstances. But then, across the stage strides Barack Obama, a supremely educated man, promoting the most uncreative, indeed discredited ideas, not to mention shabby attempts at poetry ("we are the ones we've been waiting for"). In the post-Obama era, hip-hop artists deserve reconsideration...it is simply not possible to hold that higher education in America assures insight beyond that available to those artists who everything else being equal (fatherless child, etc) peer out into the world with their own uneducated wit.

just because you can reference a few lyrics that contain a social sentiment, it doesn't compare to the glut of crap that fills the majority of programming time on BET.

in any case, there will be a few exceptions, but they are just that... the exceptions that prove the rule. i can't think of any other time that i hear De La Soul or Mos Def actually brought up in a conversation except in arguments such as this one. as sad as it is, artists like these have been pushed well into the background of relevance in the hip hop of today.

As a school teacher on the south side of Chicago I can tell you firsthand that the images that hip hop promotes to young urbanites is psychologically devastating. I have witnessed the evolution of the glamorization of thug life and it is not pretty. The reason that major corporations spend billions of dollars on advertising is that media images influence mass perceptions and shape behavior. Hip hop has the same affect. Consequently, I watch some of our best students internalize these negative images and consequently spend inordinate amounts of time and energy focusing on 'gang bangin' which lead to physical danger, jail time and sometimes death. Young girls refer to each other as bitches, hos and sluts. Some have no respect for adults and will say just about anything vulgar without regard. It is unfortunate that some people concerning this issue only value dead presidents while denigrating the long struggle for equality. If urban young people subscribe to an anti-intellectual stance, they will never be equal while a miniscule number of artists and executives profit from promoting a life style of degradation.

You can rationalize hi-hop and rap all you want, but both forms are almost totally unredeemed.

And worse, it is music that holds back the progress of the black underclass. If progress into the mainstream of American prosperity is, in fact, what they seek.

"Yes, too many rappers are indefensibly misogynistic, too free with bitch and ho, though to be shocked on behalf of young black women reveals a quaint understanding of the music industry: For more than a decade the majority of hiphop consumers have been white teenage suburban males."
I've re-read these two lines five times. What exactly is the point? Are the consumers of hip-hop now tagged as the progenitors of the misogyny of urban Black recording artists? I see more white people consuming Jazz as well. does that mean they should get credit for bebop?
Mr. Toure's arguments are tired rationalizations for the voice of a mal-adaptive, self-indulgent sub-culture. The political complaints espoused by the aforementioned artists barely rise above the level of street chants in an anti-globalization rally. Intellectual they ain't. Lecturing Mr. Crouch about what constitutes thoughtful expression strikes me as a pretty steep hill to climb. When Mr. Toure's clips approach one tenth of Crouch's, perhaps he will be arguing from an equally scaled platform.

Hip Hop is a genre of music. This describes it's musical composition. The lyrical content isn't prescribed. Hip Hop doomsayers always want to wrap misogyny, violence, and ignorance into that package. Unfortunately it's prevalent, but it's not inherent. Hip Hop is coming up on about 30 years, 20 of which it's been in the main stream. The first ten years had more female rappers who wanted to talk about something besides pleasing a man (or men, or pleasing a woman for a man). Grandmaster flash, MC Lyte, kurtis blow, the US Girls, afrika Bam, the cold crush, BDP, Get Fresh Crew, etc rhymed about hard times and good times, but didn't advocate for violent times. It doesn't seem like hip hop got endemically violent until white suburbanites started buying records. In any event, I suggest the artist be criticized, not the genre. And if you want to play genre games... I remember hair bands from the 80's wetting down girls in thongs. Reminds me of tip drilling. Rock and Roll was originally a term that meant sex, but nobody still suggests rock and roll is inherently immoral. I loved hip hop, but what musical genre has been in the main stream and not lost it's creativity and energy. Rock's many incarnations have only lasted a few years: punk, british invasion, grunge, etc. I'm looking forward to Hip Hop's eulogy. The genre is too big and there aren't enough original concepts and it's all controlled by consumer demand and corporate interests. What the world needs is for the next wave of creative and new energy to hit. But that's either to risky to get bankrolled or gets bankrolled to early creating these from obscurity to stardom flops.

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Shorter Crouch: "I like the music I like."
Shorter Toure': "I do, too."

Sorry hon, not buying it.

The comment on black masculinity is very interesting; I've heard it said that one of the greatest achievements in the history of civilisation, possibly the beginning of civilisation, was convincing men to take responsibility for their kids. The way in which children and their fathers civilise one another is quite interesting, and the relationship between fatherlessness and hyper-masculinity is also very interesting - something Eminem does a particularly good job of exploring, in my view, maybe because he's never had to 'be black' in quite the same way as other rappers.

While I take the point about masculinity and rap, it does beg the question - where do we go from here? Rap can't get much more macho, and meanwhile what's happening to the next generation?

Whenever I hear people railing against rap for causing so many social problems, the problems they list have been problems long before rap existed. Misogyny is nothing new to America (remember when women couldn't vote?), nor are gang violence, drug use, disrespect for authority, etc. Now are there rappers who endorse this stuff? Yes, and that's not good, but there are always these people in society. I think the way to stop misogyny , violence and the rest is by attacking the CAUSES of these problems (poverty, education, etc.) rather than rap, a result of living with these problems.

apologist. . .

So many aspects to this debate: race, gender, class, education, and generational. So many fingers to point.

And the band plays on...

The major problem is what music gets airplay/ major record deals. As we all know, the majority of pop hip hop consumers are white teenage boys. Record labels are well aware of that, so they fill up the airwaves with the minstrel show.

I, personally, don't listen to mainstream music, because it's intolerable. But if record labels made more space for legitimate hip hop, and women artists within in it, then hip hop would go back to representing the diversity within the Black community.

"The men of hiphop come from a generation of boys, most of whom were abandoned by their fathers, and the ramifications of their fatherlessness has led to the often caricaturish vision of masculinity that you see in hiphop."

I found this to be a very elegant and ironic statement. This of course is something many of us have always recognized in hip hop, overcompensation, but for me personally not quite this poignantly.

The "growing intellectual wing" of hip hop that Toure mentioned are mostly past their prime. Nobody is picking up the torch. One problem with hip hop is that the artists don't learn to play instruments and therefore never open themselves to all facets of music and the different dynamics available. It leaves the product stale. Pop music as a whole is as unoriginal as I've heard in my lifetime. If it's not a sound people have heard before, they immediately think it's no good. The immediate gratification of today's society keeps anybody from realizing that some things sound better over time as your brain learns the new concepts.

1: Your Grey's Anatomy example is tacky. Kanye litters 808 with several threats of violence to his ex fiancé, as well openly naming Patrick Bateman, Bret Easton Ellis' famous fictional psycho killer, as an influence on the album. Your ignoring this (in your glowing review of 808) is multiculturalism at it's most vulgar. The women of Grey's Anatomy have many good qualities, and it is there right to like the album; but don't hold them up some sort of Ideal when you know that most women aren't interested in someone who wants to

" grab your neck, (I) touch your soul
Take off your cool then lose control"

2: I was a teaching artist in three inner city high schools, and everyday the young black women I taught were bombarded by this shit. Black men, white men, old men, and young men didn't see them as human beings but as extensions of their favorite video, and when they did anything to rebel against that characterization, they faced a violent reaction. No, I don't think hip hop is the causal root for black people's problems. And no, I dont think hip hop is not the only source of misogyny in the culture. I just want people to stop kicking their a$$es. Just stop kicking their a$$es.

I agree, a weak response and rather poorly written 'Y'all'

One thing about hip hop is, it doesn't shine that well under lofty critique. But crank up your system and it's kinda hard to argue.

Toure - your examples of the intellectual wing of hip hop are great, but as noticed by others in this thread, out of date.

These days, I'd suggest looking to Definitive Jux, Anticon, Rhymesayers, (for good indie record labels with good intellectual artists) and at people like MF Doom, Madlib, El-P, Sage Francis, and Aesop Rock.

Especially Aesop Rock.

If you can actually comprehend one of his tracks in it's entirety, you'll have an amazing experience. but few of us are that cerebral and mentally flexible.

And can we please get over this idea of "Hip hop is dead" or "Rock and Roll is dead" or Punk is dead" -

if you really believe that you haven't ever picked up an iPod.

we live in a different age, music is getting even more timeless.

there could easily be more hip hop fans in 2137 than there ever have before.

we could see a resurgance of punk in 2050-

these people were recorded. the music is there forever.

you'll die, but zepplin won't.

sorry.

"That's why, when the men of Crouch's generation criticize us, I think of that saying: When you point at someone, you're also pointing at yourself. Part of why we're like this is because y'all weren't around."

And what of the women who criticize you, Toure?

Toure'

Your side of the story is touching but, I'm sorry, even with its earlier efforts to uplift, educate, and inspire hip hop has failed.

What bugs me most is that now its spilled over into the Church!