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Will They Be Prosecuted?
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Scott Horton has the latest developments on the torture case in Spain, where a high-ranking judge decides which jurist will determine the fate of the Bush Six. Despite the attorney general's efforts to stop the case, it will now proceed early next week.
Further developments in the case of the Bush Six in the Spanish Audiencia Nacional: At 11 o’clock this morning, the prosecutors attached to the court presented their opinion on whether the case should be prosecuted. Following the cue provided by Attorney General Cándido Conde Pumpido from his press conference in Madrid yesterday, the prosecutors argued that any criminal investigation coming out of the torture of five Spaniards at Guantánamo should focus on the persons actually administering the torture techniques, and not lawyers writing memoranda. The prosecutors also argued that Judge Garzón should refer the case to Ismail Moreno, another judge of the penal chamber of the Audiencia Nacional. Moreno is handling an investigation into charges that Khalid el-Masri, a German greengrocer, was kidnapped and held under sedation by the CIA at a safehouse on the Spanish island of Mallorca before being shipped off to another location. The prosecutors argued that as Garzón is trying to prosecute the five Spaniards released from Guantánamo, it would be improper for him simultaneously to handle the investigation of charges into the Bush Six on grounds that they conspired to torture the Spanish detainees.
Within a period of only a few hours, however, Judge Garzón issued an opinion on the matter. He rejected the application for a transfer to Judge Moreno saying he disagreed with the prosecutors’ analysis and felt the case should remain in his hands. However, recognizing the prosecutors’ objection, Garzón referred the case to the chief judge of the Audiencia Nacional’s penal chamber to make the final call as to whom the case should be referred. The case of the Bush Six is therefore now back in the court’s assignment system.
Lawyers familiar with Audiencia Nacional practices advise me that the chief judge usually decides questions about the referral of cases extremely quickly, in a matter of only a few days. If that holds in this case, then next week we should learn the identity of the judge who will decide whether the Bush Six case will move into the next phase of criminal investigation, or will be dropped.
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Scott Horton is a law professor and writer on legal and national-security affairs for Harper's magazine and The American Lawyer, among other publications.
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Every time I read about the torture allowed by the Bush regime, I remember the punishment handed out to the NG soldiers who were prosecuted for the activities at Abu Ghraib. I cannot imagine any normal American GI who thought these people were guilty of anything but "following orders."
Obama must see that these soldiers are pardoned and their "leaders" receive the punishment instead.
Amen to that! It seems the front line troops always get the rope. I remember Lt. Calley (sp) was the man to take the fall for the atrocity in Vietnam.
Until Cheney, Rumsfeld and the other "leaders" receive punishment and the NG soldiers at Abu Ghraib are pardoned, Obama's government is a farce. There is no halfway.
The individual people employing the techniques are in a way victims of the policy as well, believing in the end means or trapped within their command structure, victimized by the cynical policy of these lawyers and the fancy semantic trickery and distortion of facts to further their cause and fascist intent. Too bad Americans don't have the balls to do it themselves.
These freemason push boy's need to go to jail with there freemason boss the dictator bush
Remember this story?
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/16/terror/main680658.shtml
Shameful.
It's so fascinating to read Mr. Hortons partisan spin on the Bush Administration. For those who like more of the same be sure and read Jane Mayer in the New Yorker. Why read Mr. Horton's innacuracies and distortions? I suppose a desire to punish the leaders who refused to kowtow to public opinion on these issues created some of the bitterness fanned by Mr. Horton's ilk. But seriously, a few articles later from reliable sources and the ridiculous accusations become absurd. The Spanish government has announced the process "fraudulent" and descried the dishonesty of using a poorly researched book as the basis of a legal argument. I can't figure out how Mr. Horton writes these articles with a straight face. Perhaps he assumes his audience will simply agree with him without doing due diligence and researching the issue for themselves. This issue of prosecution of former members of the Bush cabinet has been declared a non-starter by Obama, Holder, the entire administration AND the Spanish Government and is only kept alive by a few hopeful souls who wish for revenge rather than the opportunity to move ahead and solve the real economic problems facing the country right now..
Unless you want future administrations to torture at will, knowing they will ultimately get away with it, it would be unwise to drop the case. I hear so much fear that the Obama administration will be some Orwellian nightmare-- guess what, you can't have an Orwellian nightmare without unfettered government surveillance and government torture!
The president could be sending the 'Tea Party' movement to Guantamano right now if he wished, it wouldn't be setting any more harsh a precedent than the last administration's stripping of civil liberties to anyone it deigned to be an 'enemy'.
This is all fueled by "A [partisan] desire to punish the leaders who refused to kowtow to public opinion" you say? THEY WERE TORTURING PEOPLE. There's a time and a place for kowtowing to public opinion, and the time and place where you're smashing people's heads against a wall to 'extract information' is it.
This is a phony issue the far left here and in Spain is trying to fan into life with the help of its handmaidens in the MSM.
Banjo
Get in touch
With
Mrs. Pinochet.
@banjo1 - I don't considered myself "far left" (although since I disagree with, I'm sure that's how you'd define me, regardless of my actual views). But I'm absolutely shamed by what my leaders did in my name. We're supposed to be the "shining hill on the city", right? In what world does disappearing people and beating them to death become part of the "shining hill on a city"?
OMG! Scott's in the MSM now, and he's collaborating with Spain!
I've been in the military, I know how it works. For example, when you're on guard duty and the Officer of the Guard comes out to see if you're sleeping on your post, protocol says that you order him to halt three times before taking any action. What they don't tell you is that he won't halt until you tell him if he doesn't stop right there and get down in the front leaning rest position you'll blow his balls off. It's all about walking the walk, and the man who isn't willing to take the next step, beyond the written protocol, is not to be trusted, and will likely come to a bad end. So it really is important that clear guidelines come from the top, and when those rules say you can push "interrogation" almost to organ failure or death, the grunts on the ground, whether for the sake of a promotion or to keep face in the ranks, are going to push things as close as they can get to killing someone. You're right, this is a phony issue, but only because this whole notion of civilized war is phony. The problems facing us are "economic" because we're bankrupt in every way; we've run out of pretenses to holding the moral high ground.
What are we supposed to do? Just Mirandize a detained terrorist who knows where and when a nuclear device will exploded in the United States?
Sure, go ahead and torture him, and he'll lie straight to your face. You won't be able to tell a lie from truth with a polygraph machine because the torture has already pushed him beyond the limits of stress reading. Guess what, you only know it's false when the bomb goes off, and based on that false intel you've now wasted time and energy that could've been spent on more effective measures. Great job, you've done the wrong thing AND doomed millions of citizens!
Any man who would give up a little liberty for security, deserves none and gets neither. It's funny how conservatives-- wait, no, sorry, advocating torture isn't conservative it's just straight fascism, apologies to fascists and conservatives for mixing that up-- will wave the flag and bandy about the founding fathers to get votes, while ignoring all that lovely Enlightenment-era philosophy.
Maybe in a couple millenia, conservative politics will enter the 16th century.
Given the choice between having to watch what I say else the Gestapo throws me in a secret prison and I never see the light of day again, or having a 1/20 chance of me personally or my family being killed by terrorists (assuming we do absolutely nothing and let them nuke us a few times), I think I'd rather take the chance.
So who's holding the high ground these days? Russia, China, Venezuela, Cuba, the Taliban, the mullah of any number of countries? Try to be specific. Also, when did we last occupy the high ground, or did we never.
This comment has been removed by The Daily Beast's editors.
There's nothing ridiculous or partisan about enforcing international laws regarding torture. Only a depraved American would think so, and last week we saw lots of them invoking a previously-obscured sexual practice to frame a Neofascist protest against the idea of taxation. Obama must prosecute crimes committed: the Constitution requires it.
This comment has been removed by The Daily Beast's editors.
Hey Peglegs, have you thought that torture is both psychological as well as physical? The most important liberties that we have concern the mind... don't you remember that the United States was founded on the freedom to believe what you want to believe in and express those beliefs without fear of persecution (It is called Cognitive Liberty just in case you did not know...)? I am telling you that the mind is the most sacred place in any human being. It is where our conscience as well as our dignity lies and we the people should not have to worry about having it's privacy violated by anyone or for any reason. And who told you that physical torture hurts and psychological torture does not?
Why don't you try taking and a scopolomine and LSD cocktail and then tell us what you think! I am sure there are a lot of readers who would volunteer to tie upu down and administer it when you were unsuspecting to give it the "against your will" feeling? Then you can tell us about the experience from an informed perspective... as opposed to your ignorant (ignorant means uninformed just in case you thought I was insulting you... if you have been tortured and injected with psycotropic substances against your will please accept my humblest appologies) perspective.
You are tiring, boring, redundant and completely irrelevant. You even seem pretty drunk at times. You rave from bitterness and you are using other people's shoulders (people that want to participate in an intelligent debate, for the most part) to cry on... do you like the free audience? I am not sure they like you or even consider themselves your personal audience in the first place.
You are searching for sympathy and understanding in the wrong place buddy. Why don't you stick to your own web site? You could limit your rants in the Daily Beast to telling people that they can get the full version of your warped ideas directly from your site (or is that the real problem? That people don't want to visit your own web site due to these self same rants?).
Why not get some professional help while you are at it... a physiatrist or psycologist won't even argue with you and might (probably would) even give you some meds that can change your outlook... you see, it is okay to meddle with a person's mind if the person consents!!!
PS: What is your problem with your being Jewish? We all know you are Jewish by now, but your religious ideals are not remotely related to most of the topics that you write about. Get off it!
These "leaders" did all in their power to torture people in our name. They have ridiculed the Constitution and the will of the American people and should be brought to trial and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Too bad we do not have the balls to do it ourselves. Maybe after Spain brings these criminals to justice in a very public way, we will finally find the courage to defend our Constitution.
The lack of interest of the conservatives, of America, in seeing the Constitution upheld, and international law upheld, is the reason why neither Congress nor the Obama White House dares to touch the crimes the Bush legal team and White House team committed, IN OUR NAME. If Obama were to try to make the Bush teams pay for their crimes, it would appear as the left wing reprisal, in the utter absence of interest by the conservatives of America. The conservatives are hamstrung by their base of true believers who have been scared into thinking that only by allowing the Admiralty court to torture can we be safe.
There is no pretty war... we know that. But what happened to the Constitution and under the last administration is beyond.. far and away beyond.... criminal. They are not above the law.
Banjo wants specifics, but I said we no longer have any pretenses to the high ground. I didn't say we ever held it. Maybe after WW2 we might have had a claim, but only because we were better than the Nazis, and willing to prosecute. To really mess with your head, I'd say no one can have the moral high ground unless they're willing to look up to others instead of down at them.
Should they... yes... will they... no
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse
Let's take moment to be proud. To so proud at what our nation has done in the Middle East. At the integrity of our leader... God Bless America. These men are innocent and this is a foolish.
(P.S. Statement above is written with IRONY and SARCASM)
Was It Torture?
Was It Torture that the Bush administration lawyers allowed, within 'limits'? My first question is how could they have known if it was or was not torture? Had they tried the various techniques on themselves or on each other in a specially equipped legal dungeon with a dispassionate group, twelve of their peers, observing, taking snapshots, and helping to form a decision? It is common to expect experts in any professional discipline to have some direct experience living, or at least working within the niche where they advise or decide.
Now that so many people worldwide are out of jobs, as a nation we may be grateful for the visibility of strong, hands-on famous role-models teaching us how to get and keep a job.
I suggest that any tribunal that seeks to pass judgment on the people who allowed torture, and those who did the torturous acts, make it their goal to give these folks their old job back-with slightly altered job descriptions. Put them back to work as evaluators who are in a proper position to decide just where the line is that demarcates torture from uncomfortable piffle. Their daily work, on a contract of uncertain duration-(to assure their 'security') would oblige them to subject themselves, and each other, to the same experiences they once had decreed for others. At the end of that work they will be able to render opinions and judgments of their own, on precisely where that line aught to be drawn.
These serious legal issues are at the core of national and worldwide debates that only seasoned field experts can hope to sort out for us. We trusted them and depended upon them when they made their initial determinations, and we should continue show our trust and loyalty and support now. In a sentence, our hats are off to you as your head(s) are off to the dungeons, and keep up the great work!
Mayer Spivack
http://artsandminds.typepad.com/
All they had to say was, "Don't torture, torturers will be prosecuted, the UN already has strict guidelines as to what is and isn't torture and we may as well follow them because we know torture doesn't work."
Cheney et al were responsible, they're far more responsible than they had to be, they made damn sure that torture happened because they're sick, sick puppies. They didn't do this for our security, they didn't do it because it was necessary, these technocrats had plenty of access to plenty of professionals who all could've told them that torture was f**king bogus, and also, not worth it. He had a death squad that answered only to him FFS. Liberty is not safe until that man swings from the gallows.
The solution to this problem should be easy enough for Obama and those who rallied to his cry of "yes we can", although for this specific embarrassing double standard scandal of our righteous, just and flag waving US of A, the rally cry should be "yes we can join the international court system".
Do you all remember how Bush rejected that idea? Do any of you doubt, today, that one of the main reasons why Bush was against joining the international court system was this specific issue of The United States running rough shod over human rights around the globe?
Why is Economic Globalization (with out regard to Human Rights and Dignity) OK for the Imperialist tendencies of BOTH parties in the house and senate, as well as for other "well intentioned" democracies around the world, but the Globalization of Justice to keep pace with the Economic Profiteering and rampant disregards for human rights unacceptable?
Obama just has to say that he agrees to an international court system and then back it up with action and leadership... he will help lift the US, as well as himself, back up to the moral high ground he keeps talking about.
Good reading for people who want to be informed about the real problems involved in this subject of debate: "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" by John Perkins and "No Logo" by Naomi Klein. The two together give a real and honest look at the national and international perspectives on the issues of the modern day slavery engendered by ignoring the need for International law to contain and eradicate the crimes perpetuated by the economic globalization that everyone raves about. There are other good books out there as well, but these two happen to be two of my favorites... globalization of Communications, understanding and good will to all? Rock on! The Globalization and tacit acceptance of criminal behavior due to the lack of an international justice system...? That is not what I call acceptable under any terms!
Is anyone trying to prosecute those animals that beheaded our men? This will ring hollow until the big view is seen my mature people...not one sided fanatics..
That is why all nations (the so called civilized and "first world" countries) that talk so much about Justice and Democracy should hardly want to avoid an International Court System. No one, anywhere on this small and totally connected planet of ours, should not have a single argumant against the desperate and urgent need for International justice, international liberty, and yes... international equal opportunity for all, regardless of race, color, or creed!
This is not just a chance for Obama to prove himself, but all world leaders that claim any kind of understanding that humanity without it's entitled dignity and repect is not possible. Rights should not be doled out as if they were dog treats for good behavior in the global economic rape by the wealthy of the poor... as if rights were a gracious charity made by benevolent big brothers (or sisters). Fellow human beings should not have to live and die in our world on the availability of charity from anyone.
"Liberty and Justice for All" should mean that where and when you are born was some kind of lunatic lottery game that arbitrarily decides who should live and who should die!
PS: Major error... I am pretty exhausted at this hour...
"Liberty and Justice for All" should NOT mean that where and when you are born IS some kind of lunatic lottery game that arbitrarily decides who should live and who should die!
When we are born don't chose our parents, the color of our skin, the religeous tendancies passed down to us from our family and social group, the education and employment opportunities presented, or not, at the place of our birth or place of our birth.
Thank you.
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