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The Health-Care Lie Machine
GOP House members are claiming that government-mandated euthanasia is part of the Democrats’ health-care plan. Michelle Goldberg tracks down the source of the most outrageous myths.
If you are a connoisseur of conservative media, then you’ve probably heard that health-care reform threatens to lead us toward a totalitarian dystopia in which the government kills off the old and unfit.
The revelations began two weeks ago, when Betsy McCaughey, the former New York lieutenant governor, spoke on Fred Thompson’s radio show about the “vicious assault on elderly people and the boomer generation” in the House health-care bill. Congress, she said, would make it “mandatory, absolutely required, that every five years, people in Medicare have a required counseling session that will tell them how to end their life sooner. How to decline nutrition, how to decline being hydrated, how to go into hospice care. And by the way, the bill expressly says that if you get sick somewhere in that five-year period… you have to go through that session again, all to do what’s in society’s best interests or your family’s best interests and cut your life short.”
One congressman said of his GOP colleagues, “Do they have somebody crank out the talking points for them, and they’re so marinated in them that they can’t separate truth from fiction?”
Soon, news of the impending systematic euthanasia of the aged was ricocheting around the right wing. On July 23, House Republican Leader John Boehner and his colleague Thaddeus McCotter released a statement charging that a provision in the health-care bill “may start us down a treacherous path toward government-encouraged euthanasia if enacted into law.” Speaking with Sean Hannity on Fox News last week, Dick Morris called the plan “creeping euthanasia.” The next day, Republican Congresswoman Virginia Foxx stood on the floor of the House and said that the GOP’s plan was “pro-life because it will not put seniors in a position of being put to death by their government.” On July 29, The Washington Times editorialized, “Back on May 1, we warned you that President Obama's health-care proposals could lead to bureaucrats deciding when to ‘pull the plug’ on an individual's medical treatment. That awful day is drawing nearer.”
Given this nightmare vision, it’s not surprising that opponents of a health-care overhaul are far more energized than supporters. All over the country, angry crowds are shouting down congressional Democrats who are believed to support Obama’s health-care push. In Long Island, New York, Rep. Tim Bishop had to be escorted to his car by police after screaming protesters disrupted a community meeting. Right-wingers hung Rep. Frank Kratovil in effigy outside his Maryland office. Video of protesters swarming Rep. Lloyd Doggett at an Austin, Texas, grocery store on Sunday is all over the Internet.
Obviously, these protests aren’t exactly spontaneous. As Talking Points Memo and others have reported, they’re being orchestrated by Americans for Prosperity and FreedomWorks, the same lobbyist-run groups behind the Tea Parties earlier this year. The Think Progress site has even obtained a memo from a volunteer with Tea Party Patriots, a group set up by FreedomWorks, on how to disrupt Democrats’ town-hall meetings and challenge their “socialist agenda.” “You need to rock-the-boat early in the Rep’s presentation,” it says. “Watch for an opportunity to yell out and challenge the Rep’s statements early. … The purpose is to make him uneasy early on and set the tone for the hall as clearly informal, and free-wheeling.”
The fact that there’s central planning doesn’t mean, though, that there isn’t also real grassroots rage and paranoia. Almost all successful protests, after all, are orchestrated by someone. An organizer, corporate or otherwise, can provide the plan and the infrastructure, but unless they’re actually paying demonstrators, people have to supply the passion themselves. And right now, the passion is with those who consider health-care reform to be a slippery slope toward Stalinism.
Heather Liggitt, a stay-at-home mother of two, helped mobilize the protest against Doggett. A member of Tea Party Patriots, Liggett said she heard that her congressman was going to be talking to people at the grocery store, and then sent out an email alerting others. No one instructed her to do so—the effort, she says, was truly grassroots. “I’ve never been politically active,” she says. “What spurred me was when I started to see the constitutional freedom and the chance of a future prosperity for my children going down the drain by the liberal agenda, I had to get involved.”
On the surface, it seems bizarre that there’s more street-level populist energy fighting against health-care reform than fighting for it. The insurance companies’ sadistic disregard for the health of those they purport to cover has been amply documented. If ever an issue called for individuals to take to the streets against corporate power, surely it should be the current health-care regime.
Fears that Obama wants to kill off the old are clearly groundless. (One wishes that went without saying, but such are our politics that it doesn’t.) The euthanasia canard rests on a deliberate misreading of a provision in the House plan that would let Medicare pay for patients to consult with doctors about their wishes should they become incapacitated. Originally, the provision was a standalone bill introduced by Oregon Democrat Earl Blumenauer and co-sponsored by Louisiana Republican Charles Boustany Jr., a cardiovascular surgeon.
Blumenauer thought the provision would be a bipartisan building block, because both Democrats and Republicans have had to face the challenge of divining the wishes of a dying loved one. “Some of the really touching, painful stories that were given in committee came from committee members themselves, not witnesses, including Republicans,” Blumenauer says. “I thought this is a way we can bring some people together.”
But even if it’s not true, the rhetoric of the anti-health-reform forces taps into broader right-wing ideological currents. For decades, the antiabortion movement has been railing against a “culture of death” that takes a cruelly utilitarian approach to human life. Conservatives have warned of oppressive federal power bent on threatening the liberties of gun-owning, God-fearing individuals. As Tom Frank wrote in What’s the Matter With Kansas, “Movement literature now abounds in lurid tales of the medical profession gone mad, of doctors giving the thumbs-up to infanticide and euthanasia, of abortionists trafficking in fetal body parts, and of deranged scientists manufacturing embryos from which stem cells can then be harvested.”
Such fears are easily activated in the health-care debate, especially if one is already inclined to believe that Obama is a nascent totalitarian. Liggitt said she is convinced that the Democrats’ plan will result in a single-payer health-care system, and her conception of such systems is hellish. “What does happen in countries with single-payer health systems like Norway, a 50-year-old man who has been diagnosed with cancer is told he will go to the bottom of the list for treatment because he’s older and somebody in their 20s has a better success rate for survival than does he,” she says. “The 20-year-old may have a family or he may not. The 50-year-old most likely does have a family. You’re going to allow this gentleman’s family to go on without him because you couldn’t afford to pay for him.”
This is not how health care works in Norway, or any other European country. “I think you’re on firm ground in saying that this a myth,” says Darrell M. West, vice president and director of governance studies at the Brookings Institute. “It’s fear of the unknown. When there is comprehensive reform, it rouses great anxiety and people fear the worst. They just assume the worst possible motives and the worst possible outcome.”
Despite its absurdity, politicians are being forced to spend time dealing with such misinformation. At Obama’s AARP town-hall meeting last week, a questioner said she’d heard that Medicare beneficiaries would be visited and “told to decide how they wish to die.” The notion of government-mandated euthanasia, says Blumenauer, is “rattling around. We’ve been getting phone calls in our office. It’s been on television. Talking heads treat it seriously so I have to treat it seriously.”
Blumenauer has been in Congress for 13 years, through the tail end Newt Gingrich’s reign and the whole of Tom DeLay’s. But the deliberate promulgation of this rumor, he says, “is an all-time low. It represents part of an effort by some people both in Congress and in the outside world to try and completely break down the legislative process. Taking over town meetings, shutting people down—it's all about hijacking the process and trying to get on television by being outrageous.”
He’s still not sure if his Republican colleagues actually believe their own rhetoric. “You hear them repeat it enough and you just wonder what’s going on,” Blumenauer says. “Do they have somebody crank out the talking points for them, and they’re so marinated in them that they can’t separate truth from fiction? Or is it that truth has become such a relative term that it no longer makes a difference?”
Michelle Goldberg is the author of The Means of Reproduction: Sex, Power and the Future of the World and Kingdom Coming: The Rise of Christian Nationalism. She is a senior correspondent for The American Prospect, and her work has appeared in The New Republic, The Nation, the Los Angeles Times, Glamour, and many other publications.
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Cleareyed08
I thought, prior to 2006 mid-term election, there were talks about Dems being ready to close down shop for good after electoral defeat 6 years in a row. The way of the politics is just like anything and everything in this world, there is wax and wane, peak and valley, coming and going. So it's really wise to cool your jets, but in the meantime count your blessings while you still have them before the tide inevitably turns against you. Just have a little perspective is all I am saying. BTW, does one also take that newly found ignorant religion of Global Warming along w/ other religions and leave? Also, I dare you to go up to a Muslim, any Muslim for that matter, and tell him to take his ignorant religion w/ him. Just make sure to say a final good-bye to your loved ones before you sum up your cowards' courage to make your one-way trip down to a mosque near you.
itstrue
so you're saying I would be killed if I insulted religion to a Muslim's face? wow... maybe in Iran or Pakistan, but not at the "mosque near me"
Also - science isn't religion. Science is based on facts, which have to be empirically proven via extremely rigorous testing. Global Warming isn't religion. I think the greenhouse effect was explained to me pretty clearly back in 6th grade and it made sense to me then - it doesn't take a leap of faith.
ElLamer
Ok I asked a muslim to "take his ignorant religion and leave". He
just laughed and asked me what I was talking about so I asked him if
he felt inclined to kill me *grinn* He, being a pretty witty guy
responded "there are two groups who are ignorant twards my religion:
Americans and Al Qaida".
For those of you who are not so in the material on this there are man
disagreements between the Muslim faith and the radicalized version
used by Al Asida which he was referring to. The vast majority of
Muslims and the Muslim faith its self are/is arguably just as
moderate as Christianity.
The problem as I see it is that now that I have gone to all the trouble to take up Cleareyed08 on his dare and proved his point wrong, I doubt he will rethink his views. I hope however he will. Does that count as a religion? *grinn*
Noreaster
You're a riot cleareyed08 - first you say, "Just have a little perspective is all I am saying." Well, that sounds reasonable. Then this, " I dare you to go up to a Muslim...and tell him to take his ignorant religion w/ him." Whew, what a stinker you must be. Where's your perspective? Then this statement, which lacks logic, never mind perspective, " say a final good-bye to your loved ones before you sum up your cowards' courage to make your one-way trip down to a mosque near you." Coward's courage? Take a look in the mirror and repeat endlessly, " it's really wise to cool MY jets"
Ritarita
El Lamer-
Al Qaida is to Islam
What the KKK is to Christianity.
I agree
Clearyeyed will not rethink.
oldpunk
WTF has this got to do with Health Care? How about you learn to read and post on the correct page.
Ritarita
Oldpunk-
Excuuuuuuse me.
tarryh
By your use of English I can tell you are not an American by birth. If you are a citizen, tho, then you should know our constitution permits viewpoints of all sorts...... that is if you were paying attention during citizenship class. You may well come from a country where dissent is not permitted, everyone is the same religion and political activism is not allowed. That would explain your narrow mindedness. Either way your fear of one of the world's great religions is clear. Your fear of change, the new century, also stands out. I am sorry for you. May the Peace of Allah be Upon You!
Uncommonsense
The only people talking about "the Dems being ready to close down shop for good" were Karl Rove and his minions.
It is a shame Ms. Legitt is so ill informed. Reading must be out of the question in her home, just listen to college dropouts Limbaugh, Hannity and Beck and then MARCH.
Did you know these idiots prevented Congressman Doggett from getting to his car? They should have had their sorry azzes arrested, on the spot.
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wolfboi1970
This is a HEALTHCARE board.. keep this trash off this board, I dont care about your feelings on muslims and christians
Cleareyed08
Wow, didn't I stir up a hornet's nest? Well, allow me to don my Haz-Mat suit before I step into and wade through the venomous bog of these agitated bloggers. Trust me, all of you deserve a rebuttal. Since I couldn't find a "reply" button to your individual comments, I'll just have to do it on a first-come-first-serve basis.
Itstrue: If you had bothered to read the original post by JDKx2 who summarily labeled religions(in plural form) as ignorant, the dude was insulting all religions including Islam. So I dared this lib-loon to prove if he(or she) is a truly equal-opportunity offender or a cowardly selective hypocrite. If the sarcasm failed to come through your thick skull, you have my sympathy. By the way, that thing you were taught in 6th grade is called superficial science for dummies. You have to study further along to be able to have an educated opinion. Also, don't you think Global Warming shares quite similar characteristics to the religion, it paints a grusome picture of damnation, it has a self-anointed high priest aka Al Gore, it draws a loyal following of zealots, fanatics and converts, and it does offer a way of salvation.
ElLamer: In the age of Youtube, am I supposed to just take your word for it that you indeed took my dare. That was pathetic, anemic, weak and, as your handle aptly shows, LAME. I do agree w/ you on one point that most of the religious people are moderate and peaceable, thus do not deserve the insult from the original poster.
Noreaster: Not only should you cool your jets, you'd better not jump the gun. My reply was tailored towards and aimed at the original post of JDKx2. Was it so hard for you to read from the very beginning or you are due or even overdue for a reading capability checkup.
Ritarita: just like you had to spell your name twice to help you remember what you go by, you ought to try to read the original post and my reply twice so you can sense my sarcasm towards the former.
Tarryh: Can you tell someone sound black over the phone? The old adage is "Never Assume or you will make an *** before u and me". I have to humbly reject "a teaching moment" from you because you so failed to see the "tongue in cheek"-ness in my reply towards the original post which started this insulting of the religion and all religions business. My parting words to you, "Allahu Akbar", which suits your fine and bothers me none.
Uncommonsense: I heard the "Dems closing down the shop for good" comments not from Rove or his minions but from several liberal talk show hosts and commentors before 06 mid-term when Iraq war was at its lowest point and Bush's approval ratings in the tank. They said and I paraphrase, if Dems couldn't win in this kind of environment favorable to them, they might as well close down for good. Google them, capice?
CrashtextDummy: since you Dummy reduced yourself down to the gutter level, I am of the Old Testament and believe in an eye for an eye. If a Dummy like you has the proclivity of sucking thumbs, chewing nails or better yet using a pencil or any pencil-like objects to poke your own eyes or anywhere, keep it to yourself. BTW, maroon is not my color of choice, but moron is definitely your calling card.
Wolfboi: The original poster started this side show, but your point is well taken.
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elldeen
???
elldeen
Hey, Cleareyed: Don't get so stressed about all these people.You will wind up having a stroke. They have a right to free speech just like you and I. So pour a glass of your favorite drink, grab the remote -and just sit back and chill! Then maybe you should read "Spinocoreader"'s post below, if you haven't already (or whatever the name is - I need to get a new monitor cos the words on the screen are getting so fuzzy).
MaliciousDisorder
Why do you even engage such shallow comments ?
hockeydog
If one is really interested in who, which individual, is the source of this campaign of misinformation, one need look no further than Karl Rove. The "organizers" of the quote-tea-baggers-end-quote thrive on creating falsehoods, and then manipulating public opinion.
Karl knows that the more outrageous the accusation, the better the traction of the lie. The hallmarks of this strategy include coming up with a peppy name for the group, tea-baggers, swift-boat veterans, citizens against unneccessary taxation, and so on and so forth.
The targets are always the weaker portions of our society. Sometimes, for example the idea is to target a group like "illegal immigrants", and then create hysteria based on xenophobia. Or, in this case their target is a target audience, "the elderly". Does anybody remember "welfare mothers"?
Credibility has no part in the equation. Recall, that early in Karl's career he smeared a fine judge, who was running for re-election with his whisper campaign that this man's altruistic interest in helping disadvantaged children stemmed from his "hidden secret" of being a child molester.
How does a person respond to a question like, "Well, judge, is it true you are no longer an active child molester?" Karl Rove set the standard for this low water mark, and the mouthpieces like Rush Limbaugh simply parrot the master.
Sadly, while this little frenzy is being stirred about socialized medicine, the debate about an individual's free-will choice for euthanisia is being lost. Kind of reminds one of the frenzy, the hysteria that accompanied another big lie, that the United States was under siege by cohorts of Sadaam Hussein. That one gained some traction alright.
Cymatic
Excellent post. I think Rove does qualify for the term "white collar psychopath". These are people who feel no remorse or guilt about lying or ruining people's lives. Rove's tactics smear campaign against John McCain when he ran Dubya's campaign for the Republican leadership are infamous. I don't think he will ever lose even a wink of sleep for those damaged by his lies.
DoctorB
Thanks for making many very pertinent points. By now, I have become inured to the GOP lie machine. On the health care issue, I take every opportunity to refute for my patients the outrageous lies cited in the article. Only the ignorant (i.e., the GOP "base") are taken in by that crap.
periscope
Well said hockeydog. As mentioned elsewhere on TDB, the GOP has been using lies and dirty tricks since the Nixon campaign in the 1960s with Donald Segretti, who was actually imprisoned for his crimes.
But then Lee Atwater got away with the Big Lie that put Bushdaddy in office, which enabled Bushboy to gain credibility for high office, even though his record of DUIs and business failures should have sunk him.
Then along came Karl Rover - the rabid attack dog, and the rest is tragic history.
OffenbachStutz
Karl Rove's sister is a thespian.
Chuckv
We have gotten to, or are close to, the point where there are intelligent Republicans and there are honest Republicans, but there are no intelligent, honest Republicans.
Ritarita
Hockeydoggie-
Your greatest post ever.
Especially the point
About the targets being
The weakest portions of society.
The odiousness of Rove's tactics
Are nauseating.
Maybe he will apologize
Before he dies a painful agonizing death
The way Lee Atwater did.
MariosRight
This morning Joe Scarborough insisted these people that show up at the meetings are just normal people voicing their opinions. He also insisted there was no organized movement pushing these disruptors. Since he does not seem to be lacking in intelligence, I can only assume he is Lying so as to support the wacko movement.
No surprise because that is what the repubs have resorted to because they have nothing else!
democracyforall
Dr. McCaughey has read the bill twice, she says:
The assault against seniors began with the stimulus package in February. Slipped into the bill was substantial funding for comparative effectiveness research, which is generally code for limiting care based on the patient's age. Economists are familiar with the formula, where the cost of a treatment is divided by the number of years (called QALYs, or quality-adjusted life years) that the patient is likely to benefit. In Britain, the formula leads to denying treatments for older patients who have fewer years to benefit from care than younger patients.
roger37
Uh, a bit of anecdotal evidence for you: My Scottish Father-in- law died in January in London at the age of 99 years and 4 months. He was in an assisted-living facility, received all the health care he or his kids asked for or needed for him, and nobody ended his life.
He lived on his own until he was 96, he was visited by a nurse on a regular basis and he never had care rationed or delayed.
rpopstar
cleareyed....while you're correct that "forever" ain't "forever" anymore, back in 2002, John B. Judis and Ruy Teixeira wrtoe a book called The Emerging Democratic Majority, which pretty much got '06 and '08 completely right....
the gop on the other hand, at this point, has a lock on one group nationally: whites without college degrees. they've lost women, young people, suburbanites, the educated, every minority, etc... that red/blue map makes for some uphill sledding...
lorijen
Fifteen percent of Americans believe Earth is flat and man has never been on the moon. One out of six people will believe anything they're told. That 15% seems to support the Republican talk machine.
SFGiants
Hockeydog: this is an excellent post, with good points, and well and clearly written.
ThinkAgain
Have you considered that perhaps your continual attacking of a group you call a "relic" makes you look silly. If they're an irrelevant relic, why waste your time?
Tira-misu
Haha...and that is your retort? Your party has been accused of spreading vicious lies intended to distort the truth, and your defense is: "calling them a "relic" makes you look "silly" haha. This kind of person, with the lack of intellect to engineer their own personal thoughts is the exact reason why they are still not "irrelevant"...how unfortunate for us free-thinkers.
democracyforall
Has anybody "for" this bill even read it?
This bill is chocked full of penalty, tax and red tape.
The tax against your earnings start at 2.5 percent of your gross income. That's before you even start paying the premium.
And then small companies are penalized $100 each day an employee is not covered.
This bill will put all of us in the hospital and an early grave.
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Bunx05
Actually democracy:
I haven't read every part of each of the 5 bills, but I have read the parts that interest me with regard to access, cost, counseling and the public option. The small companies provision actually states that they will be fined up to $100 a day for every day they do NOT offer some form of healthcare. Also, theat provision is only in the "bipartisan" bill from the Senate.
I agree that there needs to be some cleanup on all the bills. Obama's original proposal was, surprisingly, pretty awesome. The CBO endorsed his proposal as a means to cut cost while not destroying the insurance industry and making access available to every citizen who would want it. Congress has basically taken his proposal, bent it over in front of the special interest and let them go to town on it.
dazzles
The forces of resistance have an agenda, be assured of that. While caring for an American friend with kidney failure from Kansas MO, in both Kansas City and then in my home in Canada - I witnessed two disturbing Facts.
1. The health coverage in MO (USA) allowed for only two days of hospital coverage, to determine and implement the best care for this individual. Additional days needed to be justified to an insurance agent, who is being paid to find reasons to deny the coverage. The Canadian system has no such limitation on CARE and Diagnosis. I was informed by the care givers in the Canadian hospital, that the period often utilized to determine the best treatment could run in the weeks.
2. The exact same dialysis supplies required for their home based treatment cost $1,500 per month in Canada and $15,000 per month in the US!
Again, the forces of materialism and greed attempt to sway beliefs for Their benefit alone.
Good Luck America!
OHNOTAGAIN
Well afterall "W" told them either you are with us or our enemy, and the Repubs fell for it. Yet, they still want to disrupt the Country with lies, smears and racial fear. If only they were true Christians, maybe we as Americans would stand a chance. But no.........they would rather the Country go down in flames than to come together and rebuild this Nation.
aBigDeal
No, ignorant religion is the Church of Universal Health Care and Global Warming, er, Climate Change. That's the new term, since "Warming" is a tough sell these days.
Socialism is also a religion, since it deals in faith, not facts.
rickjr82
Yeah, the last month of temperatures proves that. C'mon, how could global warming exist if it is colder today than it was last week.
baptox
The biggest socialists in the world are right wing republicans! What do you think corporate bailouts, social security, medicare and the armed services are? Socialism! My guess is that you are or will be a recipient of one of these socialist programs.
Your misunderstanding regarding the global warming/climate change issue is indicative of your general lack of knowledge about the world and about science.
Oh, and BTW, aBigDEAL, you are not a big deal. You're just another sad, ignorant human being who chooses to remain stupid. You'll be denying the existence of climate change as the waters rise above your head.
baptox
After reading some of these posts, I'm beginning to think maybe killing the right-wing old and unfit isn't such a bad idea! Let 'em all OD on geritol!
Seriously, there is a huge generational shift in power going on in our country. Those over seventy need to let younger people run things for awhile.
MrGEAH
I hope you have plenty of mustard available, because you are going to be eating those words in 2010.
Health care has, to quote Admiral Yamamoto, "awaken[ed] a sleeping giant and fill[ed] him with a terrible resolve."
mcmchugh99
She used to be called Betsy Ross back when she was lietutenant governor of New York, and she made Sarah Paln look like an Einstein. I'm surprsied that she didn't end up as a Republican VP candidate at some point, except that she could not be elected to the Yahoo Flats village council.
drstedman
I would be willing to bet that if you take a poll amongst only registered Republicans (the few, the passionate, the crazy), that the MAJORITY of them believe that goverment run healthcare = forced euthanasia. Just like a large portion of them believe Obama was not born in the USA.
They have become such a small sample of the general population that they can easily have extremist conspiracy theories take them over.
I work in a place that is mostly registered GOP. They believe all of this. They would believe that people who get sick in Europe are ground up and fed to the young (and then deleted from past censuses to keep up the appearance of long lifespans) if someone on Fox News said it.
CRAZY
driggarsjw
"I work in a place that is.....if someone on Fox News said it" What a truly excellent and saddening analysis of the majority of FNC viewers that I interact with every day.
What keeps me up nights is how are we supposed to counteract that? How do you explain to these people that the leaders they support are the same people whose ultimate goal is to keep them down?
spinozareader
drstedman
I, too, work in such a place. And the sort of "Stockholm Syndrome" exhibited by these people is at turns desperately sad and f**king alarming.
And it's left me with a lot of troubled nights (like driggarsjw refers to in his/her post) wondering...what to do?? What works best in my situation (because I believe that I work with predominantly decent--if too easily swayed and maybe lazy-minded--people) is a decidedly "non-strident" argument when it comes to "hot-button" issues. This is hard for me, because I feel such passion about things like Universal health care, the vital need of preserving separation of Church and State, advocating Pro-Choice, and keeping children away from abusers (parents included).
But I do feel that my co-workers listen to me--as evidenced by the fact that we actually TALK about these things, rather than having conversation shut down (which is, effectively, a stalemate situation).
Sometimes, this is as good as it gets. At other times, you might actually stir someone to change his mind. (I once had a woman come to me and tell me that our talk about something radically shifted her position on that subject--to my way of thinking. I was amazed. And I realized the value of those seemingly-moot, gentle discussions that human beings engage in every day.)
Therein lies my hope.
And "hope" is a dicey word/concept for someone as cynical as myself.
If I can entertain the notion; surely anyone can.
elldeen
Great post. I could try this with my oldest brother, who is a right-wing dingaling. But I don't think that I'll get too far with him!
Sempronia
One could see how old people could already be nervous about changes to the system, even without the false advertisement of a system to kill them off. It's bad enough to get lost in the shuffle and hard enough to catch up with changes in the current system while balancing one's own health issues, the idea of newness would itself be unnerving. The present hysteria among the elderly is evidence of this: old people who may be savvy enough to figure out the internet or who watch the news, but maybe not quite so well-acquainted with figuring out the truth; and it's no wonder, if just about everyone in the media is walking around with a nasty bias, or else stands accused of it.
It's a shame, because the point of discussion should be telling the truth to seniors, finding out in what ways they already slip through the cracks in the present system and how these can be remedied, and gearing up to deal with the onslaught of the aging boomers.
(Apologies to any sharp-eyed old people out there who might be insulted by the insinuation of lack-of-savviness; I've just been thinking a lot about this after talking to an elderly relative who is sincerely frightened about losing her health care, and who has a weakness for conservative chain emails...)
sippewissett
Ask Canadian or European elders if they are moving to euthanasia. Not. We already have Medicare which is socialized medicine and there's no call for euthanasia there either.
Let's cut the crap from the GOP songbook by suing them when they lie. Accountability needs to be part of the political scene for a change!
oldpunk
It is amazing how much of the stupid lies some people believe. Honestly you have got to be really dumb to believe the rubbish the GOP come up with.
I have been in this country about 2 years & the complete lies that they expect you to swallow. I watch & think Nobody would be dumb enough to believe that crap. Obama is a Muslim , Pals around with terrorists , The birth certificate, & in Europe we have Euthanasia to save money ?? You really have to be dumb to believe that.
If you do try talking to someone from Canada or Europe.
If it is that impossible to do it , how did every other Western Democracy manage to do it?
All this debate does is make Americans look stupid in front of the rest of the world.
AlanD2
oldpunk: I hope the rest of the world is astute enough to recognize that not all Americans are Republicans.
Sempronia
I agree. I have a friend whose father is in his mid-60s and had to have an operation. They live in Italy, but the guy is a Canadian citizen. Not only did he get the necessary operation in Italy and is fully recovered, but the Canadian government pays for it -- Imagine being able to go to the bursar at the hospital and, instead of paying a co-pay, giving the employee your provincial insurance card, so that the Italian government knows to bill Ontario!
BTW, please understand that I make no excuses for people who aren't seniors -- I'm talking over 70...
djanimaequeen
Oldpunk while I agree with you on most of your points, like Alan said I hope the rest of the world can see that the majority of us thinks that this is rubbish. And if Europe is so progressive, why don't they have any leaders of color? We'll follow Europe's lead with healthcare and they can follow us on everything else. Oh and I should note that while you are criticizing the US it is your current place of residence so it must not be all that bad. God bless America, the greatest country the world has ever seen.
oldpunk
@ djanimaequeen
If you read my post i was NOT criticizing the US , i was criticizing the GOP. I do not think for one second that the GOP represents all Americans , if it did how would have Obama been elected ?
If America is the best country in the world ever it would not follow anyone in anything.The people who waive flags saying My country is the best in the world usually are the ones who have never been anywhere to know.
djanimaequeen
oldpunk
I read your post and commented accordingly. And if there is another country that you think is better than the US then by all means, move there. It irritates me when people complain how other countries are better the US while they are living in the US! That's the point YOU missed. If its better somewhere else, then take yourself somewhere else. Even with all our problems, my country is the best and when I visit other counties it only solidifies that belief. But thanks for the travel advise.
oldpunk
djanimaequeen
One again i did not say any country was better than America , my comments was about the GOP & the rubbish they come out with.
America is the only western democracy that does not have free health care, this is not criticizing it is a fact. I do not think any country is better than another.Every country has its faults.
Once again the comments were about the GOP , i do not think this represents all Americans or the country, just the Republicans and the people who believe the rubbish they come out with.
shortcourse
I'm an old fart...it's not euthanasia that bothers me or I wouldn't be reading/posting on this site...it's the damn government period. I can't trust them any further than I can spit false teeth. We're broke and the Chinese make and own our walkers. Since when has the government ever started something that hasn't cost a zillion times more than they intially promised. And who says they won't pay millions for handicapped toilet seats. And I will not excuse or pardon the private insurance industry that makes a living screwing everyone for wanting decent health care....any CEO making millions while someone out of work needs healthcare for their family needs to be given a colonostomy with a broomstick.
baptox
Uhhh...At least you recognize that you're an old fart...I think you meant " 'colonoscopy' with a broomstick," not " 'colonostomy' (sic) with a broomstick'..." Let's get our violent anal allusions right before we tackle healthcare and government spending...
mathomas
I distrust the insurance and pharmaceutical companies trying to stop health care reform by any means necessary a LOT less more than I distrust Obama!
laDivaG
The most frustrating thing about this, for me, is that the Republican representatives' deliberately misunderstanding the content of the bill so they have something to take pot-shots at. Much better to find real issues or problems with the bill.
Does this mean that they, in truth, find none? I hope not, because surely there are some real wrinkles that need ironing out.
Conclusion: These Republican representatives are incompetent and/or lazy and are pushing the buttons they already know work to divert attention from their weaknesses and gain easy points with the lunatic fringe.
No surprise there, but it's a dangerous game; we know how that worked out for Palin.
The worst part of it is that they are playing their game with US citizens' health. If their constituents ever start paying attention to what's really going on they could be in trouble. Politically speaking.
On second thought, they're probably safe.
sippewissett
Everyone, including the elderly, need to demand an alternative plan from the GOP. They haven't got one because the insurance and pharma lobbies don't want one. It's that simple. I agree with the guy who thinks all federal politicians should lose their plan until we have national reform. They are way too smug because they have a safety net!
MrGEAH
There have been plenty of plans, sippewassett.
Ever heard of HSAs?
Jut because you haven't been paying attention, it doesn't mean they aren't out there.
leftygoleft
This is the only thing the republican'ts know how to do. This is their only play in their political playbook. Raise fear among the most ignorant of the population. They used it for communism, they used it for terrorism, they used it and are using it for health care, they will use it every time because it is all they know. They don't offer solutions they just get people so scared that they are afraid to do anything else.
prufrock
I am so sick of political parties' (and biased media personalities')tactics to "win" whatever topic is at hand. It's should not be about whether the liberals win or the conservatives win. It should be about what's best for everyone, what's best for our country. So many of them seem to be all about who can get the power (and with it, the money). They're off spinning untruths that influence legislative decisions like it's some game. Meanwhile, the rest of us are forced to live in the reality they create.
AlanD2
Please note that "win at all costs" and "lie if it helps" are mostly conservative tactics. Obama has bent over backwards for bipartisanship, but has gotten kicked in the face in return.
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Ronym5
The ironic thing is it's attacks on government healthcare made to scare people already on government healthcare
democracyforall
The whole idea of euthanasia is crazy. Nobody really thinks that will happen outright. No plan is going to spell that out.
However the country going bankrupt will affect existing programs for the elderly.
The trillion dollar deficit, the stimulus that isn't creating jobs, the healthcare plan we can not afford, the 18% less tax revenue collected this year, these will hurt existing programs such as Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security. These are real facts.
djanimaequeen
I'm not sure you've noticed but we are already bankrupt thanks to Bush and his incompetence. It's really short sided of you to think that keeping things the way they are is what's best for America's future. The initial investment to overhaul healthcare is nothing compared to what we will loose if we continue on our current path. You seem to parrot a lot of stats but I honestly don't believe you have the intelligence to disseminate the info. I don't mean to be insulting but you really should shut the hell up.
roger37
democracy for all: Why do you people always bemoan "the trillion dollar deficit" as if it is new? Just FYI:
National Debt (accumulation of annual deficits) when George W Bush went into his first fiscal year (2001)---$5.807 Trillion.
National Debt when at the end of June, 2009 (still operating on Bush's fiscal budget)---11.632 Trillion.
Bush doubled the debt from a huge base, Reagan TRIPLED the debt from a base of "only" $998 Billion. Clinton had a small increase but actually paid down part of the National Debt in his last two years.
democracyforall
At least you agree that we can't afford another trillion on health care.
With or without this bill, costs need to come down.
democracyforall
I never said all the problems we have started this year. All the Congressional committees have been chaired by democrats the last 2.5 years. And we know Pelosi sat on every request Bush sent to her.
The housing boom really took off in the 1990's and skyrocketed out of control. Nobody tried to stop it, bad loans were given then and even now. Banks are still folding, 69 this year. Who is to blame does not make the next trillion more affordable.
exploora
[GAO Finds Material Weakness in SEC's Controls
After squeaking by last year, the SEC's internal controls over financial reporting are found to have a material weakness in the government equivalent of a section 404 audit.
Stephen Taub - CFO.com | US
November 19, 2007
The Government Accountability Office said Monday that the Securities and Exchange Commission had a material weakness in the internal controls over its financial reporting.
The GAO's report said that data related to accounts receivable balances is processed manually at the SEC in a manner that is prone to error and could result in inaccurate financial reporting by the agency. The news is a blow to the SEC, which was criticized by the GAO in 2006 for the same manual processes, but narrowly avoided a material weakness by putting in place extra controls to compensate for them. The GAO said those controls were not effective in 2007.] excerpted from [http://www.cfo.com/article.cfm/10165210/c_10164041?f=home_todayinfinance];
So what protects the public, if government bodies do not have proper controls to assure competency and ethical behaviour when overseeing standards to protect the public. This is a real question.
[ In its latest report, the GAO assured that the SEC's financial statements for fiscal 2007 and 2006 were fairly presented. It also noted that the SEC maintained effective internal control over compliance with laws and regulations material to its financial statements as of September 30, 2007. And the GAO did not find reportable instances of noncompliance with the laws and regulations it tested.
In its 2006 report, the GAO reported on weaknesses in the SEC's information systems controls, recording and reporting of disgorgements and penalties, and property and equipment controls.
The SEC made significant progress on addressing those concerns, according to the GAO. "During fiscal year 2007, SEC improved its controls over the accuracy, timeliness, and completeness of the disgorgement and penalty data and used a much improved database for the initial recording and tracking of these data," the GAO reported.] excerpted from excerpted from [http://www.cfo.com/article.cfm/10165210/c_10164041?f=home_todayinfinance];
Ok, well common sense would dictate that auditors must be registered, especially when there are state requirements for them to go submit to a peer review. So why didn't Madoff's accountant get stopped much sooner? How much did IRS made through taxes paid on phantom earnings? This is a serious question.
What protects the public, if public bodies do not have a duty or obligation to act in a competant manner.
Look how many seniours, and charities, who invested and did everything right, will now face an uncertain future, and will not be able to pay for things to keep them or their dependants well.
In theory this was not supposed to happen.
But in practice it did happen.
Now people argue as if SEC had no duty to the public.
This is a serious issue. State Capitalism can lead to greedy behaviour and inhuman behaviour too.
In Madoff's case there appears to be no accounting for SEC acting in what appears to be a negligent matter.
So what protects the public from medical fraud? A pretty face? This is a serious question.
exploora
I meant: In Madoff's case there appears to be no accounting for SEC acting in what appears to be a negligent maNNer and which also appears to have have to a huge payoff for IRS from taxes on phantom earnings.
So what protects the public from medical fraud? A pretty face? This is a serious question.
jaggededge
do you believe there is no fraud now?
Nobodyreally
One Day. One Voice. Aug 22st 2009.
To everyone who wants a public option or single payer, we need to make ourselves heard. I'm so tired of the idiotic yelling, the fake protests and tantrums of the conservative right backed by big industry.
We need a national day of solidarity. All of us, stopping everything and leaving no doubt who the majority of this country is and what we want.
Let's make Saturday August 22st the day everyone who supports a public option and single payer makes their voice heard.
One Day. One Voice. Aug 22st 2009.
Let's be heard!
If we stay quiet we will lose.
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Artist50
Let's just kill Michelle! Just kidding........
Noreaster
Dems, progressive ones, need to emphasize the indirect euthanesia of denial of coverage common in private insurance, overcrowded ER's slowing down adequate treatment, people opting out of treatment because of cost. Show real folks with real problems continually. The Reps at these Town Halls should have 5 or more people with medical horror stories on hand. Lets see the wingnuts screaming at a kid with cancer whose parents can't get treatment because of "preexisting condition" denial.
ThinkAgain
Good idea. Call Acorn. If they can "manufacture a mob" overnight to go out and harass the AIG exec homes, surely they can manufacture some sick people.
OHNOTAGAIN
Yes, continue to blame Acorn for beating all existing political machines. You are not giving them as much credit as they really deserve. How many fradulent votes did they create. The key word here is fradulent votes!! Acorn kind of reminds me of the resistance against poll taxes!!
Noreaster
works for me
AlanD2
Right. About 22,000 uninsured Americans die each year. Euthanesia for the poor...
I remember one case here in Oregon where a 5-year-old boy died of an untreated tooth cavity because his parents couldn't afford a dentist. This is the "status quo" in action!
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djanimaequeen
OMG so sad. How anyone can think that healthcare in America is fine is just plain criminal.
shortcourse
my government insurance does not include dental.
exploora
I meant: In Madoff's case there appears to be no accounting for SEC acting in what appears to be a negligent maNNer and which also appears to have LED to a huge payoff for IRS from taxes on phantom earnings.
This is an important question. And if proper controls are in place, where medical fraud, can be detected quickly, then maybe there is nothing to fear. But we should have fed Madoff. SEC stood by, and that was one public body that could have protected the public, by investigating Madoff's accountant related to the controls he was using, related to the investments he had with Madoff, which did not make him a suitable audtitor even if he had been auditing.
These are the things that scare people. Government incompetency related to health care, finances, and running and starting wars.
Of course more money for health would mean less money for war.
democracyforall
Dr. McCaughey has read the 18,000 page legislation twice. She has insights.
http://wsbradio.com/inside/herman_cain_mccaughey.html
Artist50
She blatantly lied on Fred Thompson's show. The truth is that the the section she was talking about says people on Medicare can have a consultation with their own physcian about a living will paid for every five years. It is not mandatory, it is not with a government physcian. This is on page 425 added by Congressman Earl Blumenauer of Oregon. Go to Factcheck.com or Snopes to check the facts.
baptox
And what is wrong with discussing an "Advanced Directive for Healthcare" with a Medicare recipient or anyone? I've worked for two different Hospices and two different hospitals in my career and we always discussed these with patients. Big deal. All Advanced Directives do is state your wishes in a legal format so that a designated person will be able to convey those wishes should you become unable to do so. Everyone should have one of these.
exploora
[The GAO added that the SEC's material weakness also included other control deficiencies related to the SEC's period-end closing process, accounting for transaction fee revenue and preparation of financial statement disclosures.
The news is also a moral blow the agency, which is responsible for implementing and enforcing the provisions of the Sarbanes-Oxley Act for publicly-listed companies. Section 404 of the act requires that companies maintain internal controls over financial reporting, and requires its CEO and CFO to attest to their effectiveness.
In response, SEC chairman Christopher Cox said that in 2008 the commission will introduce new software systems designed to eliminate the material weakness in the SEC's internal controls. "The SEC intends to remediate this material weakness before the end of fiscal 2008 and to address each of the findings and recommendations identified during the audit," said Cox in a letter to Comptroller General David Walker.] excerpted from http://www.cfo.com/article.cfm/10165210/c_10164041?f=home_todayinfinance.
So what protects the public, from medical fraud or any fraud, or just incompetent behaviour by public bodies.
Thank you.
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