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Pelosi Is Wrong
Jack Kurtz / Zuma Press
Democrats tried to turn around the health-care debate this weekend, with Obama criticizing opponents on his weekly address and Pelosi labeling them "un-American." But Reihan Salam says the protests will only grow.
Nancy Pelosi and Steny Hoyer have harsh words for the protesters who have been turning up at town halls across the country. After highlighting a handful of extreme tactics—in Maryland, protesters hanged a member of Congress in effigy—Pelosi and Hoyer proceeded to accuse the protesters of engaging in “un-American” behavior, perhaps forgetting that the far more extreme tarring and feathering of British officials was a favorite pastime of America’s pro-independence radicals.
Whether the House Democratic leadership likes it or not, the so-called "town brawls" are a sign of things to come. The left has accused conservative activists of manufacturing outrage over President Obama's health-reform efforts. Conservatives in turn have argued that the AFL-CIO, SEIU, Organizing for America and other left-leaning groups have been just as active in rallying their supporters. What is clear is that both sides have had a fairly easy time finding riled-up citizens who are more than happy to wave incendiary signs and scream like banshees. Could this have something to do with the lackluster quality of prime-time television? Mad Men won't be back on until August 16th, and bullying some chump congressperson might be preferable to enduring yet another episode of The Real Housewives of Atlanta.
If Obamacare eventually passes in some form, I'll make you a guarantee: these ferocious protests will keep getting bigger and louder.
Actually, the people who've been raising a ruckus at town halls are not there because they have nothing better to do: they're acting out because they are intensely ideological, and they are eager to fight for their beliefs. Liberals insist that the anti-Obamacare protesters represent an extreme and intemperate minority, and they're absolutely right. But the same was true of those who protested for abolition and women's suffrage and temperance and civil rights for African Americans and for gays and lesbians. I don't believe that Obamacare is a grave evil that should be bitterly opposed, like Jim Crow. Rather, I think it's an ill-conceived mish-mash that will quickly fall apart, leaving the next president to pick up the pieces. If I did think Obamacare was evil, though, I'd angrily attend a dozen town halls, shaking my fists and playing the kazoo at every one. And if Obamacare eventually passes in some form, I'll make you a guarantee: these ferocious protests will keep getting bigger and louder.
To get a glimpse of America’s future, consider France. The French have the health-care system that Americans desperately want: it combines private providers and patient choice with a large and generous public insurance system, one that keeps out-of-pocket costs extremely low for working families. The French system is also dramatically cheaper than our own. But whenever there's a move to tweak the system in some way—say, to gently nudge patients to get the approval of a general practitioner before seeing a specialist—the French go absolutely mad with rage. Doctors go on strike, massive street protests ensue, the riot police come out: it's a crazy scene.
And it makes perfect sense: as more life and death decisions are placed in the hands of democratically elected legislators, politics become more than an occasional nuisance. When your wages are stagnant or your health insurance premiums are zooming skyward, you don't blame your boss or bad luck; instead, you blame the knuckleheads running, or rather ruining, the country. You come to feel as though you can't just wait until the next election: You need to make your voice heard now—even if that means taking to the streets or throwing a punch. We can call the protesters “un-American.” Yet America has gone through long periods of roiling unrest before and it can happen again.
Reihan Salam is a fellow at the New America Foundation and the co-author of Grand New Party.
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Lloyd Grove is editor at large for The Daily Beast. He is also a frequent contributor to New York magazine and was a contributing editor for Condé Nast Portfolio. He wrote a gossip column for the New York Daily News from 2003 to 2006. Prior to that, he wrote the Reliable Source column for the Washington Post, where he spent 23 years covering politics, the media, and other subjects.
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"Un-American" is an unfortunate and incorrect term. The term would be undemocratic. Subverting public input is not democratic. Trying to lead to a revolt to overthrow the democratically elected leader - and don't pretend this isn't what the protesters want - is not democratic either. Obama was elected soundly with this as part of his platform, and so was the democratic congress. People need to stop whining and if it's a big disaster then vote him out in 4 years with a big enough majority to reverse the changes. That's how democracies work.
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hear hear
Yeah, they did the same thing in Iran- we see how that worked out. Ahmedinejad tried to force through universal health care, the Obama parallels are scary.
Once Obamacare passes people will be in the streets protesting their Medicare. The protests will get louder and louder until 90% of people have health care. Eventually, if these people with their "pre-existing conditions" keep receiving treatment- we may see another revolution.
If we don't force the poor to become rich, what motivation will they have to work hard?
You are one sick puppy. What parallels are there between the proposed legislation going through Congress and Iran? A snide accusation without facts, as usual. Moreover, you neatly overlook that the public option is just that, an option. You can keep your current medical plan if you wish. What about "option" do you not understand? Duh.
you recognize that your ignorance actually works against your point, right?
Drawing a parallel between Ahmadinejad and Obama is as ridiculous as comparing Obama to Hitler. It makes no sense, is unsubstantiated, and does not add anything to the debate. It is just another way to create confusion and fear.
Some people have a "pre-existing condition" called poverty, called joblessness, called not being born named Bush or Kerry or McCain.
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Rick, you can't be cynical with liberals, they just get hysterical and start calling you names. That's how you know you've struck the chord between ideology and common sense.
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Funny as always Rick (even if people think you're serious).
In your little dream world Ahmedinejad was trying to turn Iran into Sweden!?! Forcing people to have an affordable and working health care system like such notorious countries with "death panels" and "forced euthanasia" such as Canada, Britain, Switzerland and Denmark!?! The attempt to equate health care with dictatorships like Nazi Germany and Iran is incredibly dishonest. People, including the handicapped, are taken care of very well in these countries.
Sorry I did not get the joke either. So much silliness going on, it's easy to lose your sense of humor.
I can't even make sense of this. What are you even trying to say?
What the hell are you talking about? Have you been drinking the water in Wasilla?
I've heard rumors that Ahmadinejad urinates from the standing position. Time to glue the toilet seat in the down position.
Thank you for making these points.
* The anti-town hall protesters are like the so-called Tea Bag protesters, both anxious to present their point of view through yelling and invective. The idea that we should 'cave' because people are ranting rather than debating IS "undemocratic".
* Yes, they cannot get over the fact that Obama won, democratically. Instead of focusing on constructive opposition -- by presenting alternative plans -- they think their role is to be rabble for four years. No wonder the GOP is sinking like a stone. And, yes, I believe that most of the opposition is from the Right. They are baited by lying leaders (like Gingrich and Palin) to oppose ANYthing Obama presents. What a horrible deterioration of our democracy they represent.
The US is not a democracy...it's a representative republic. BIG difference...
If these people want to opt out of Social Security and Medicare, by all means let them. If any states want to opt out, let them.
We;ll see if they put their money where their mouth is. My guess is that they never will, no more than those Republicans governors turned down the stimulus money for their states.
Show time, folks. If you really want the government out of your lives, then prove it, or shut up. Put up or shut up, right now.
The leftist are utterly clueless and shameless. Your thug tactics to subvert public discussion of the war in Iraq, Roe vs Wade repeal, anti-illegal immigration policies or border security were evident the last decade as you rushed stages and chased speakers off the stage, blew whistles and used bullhorns to drown out opposing speech. You need the WH to call you to arms for the health care issue which is not has glamorous as the mythical man-made climate change issue. And your answer to debate is to grab signs or flags from another citizen's hand, push him to the ground and kick him in the head. Who is the undemocratic ones in this scenario? Note the log of events:
http://www.redstate.com/e_pluribus_unum/2009/08/10/republicans-take-on-c apone/
This is nonsense, people on the right DON'T REALLY WANT an open debate on this issue. Why? Because they know that if you debate this issue on the merits - they don't have a leg to stand on. Wake up America!!!!!!!!!!!!
The right's supporters are complete morons. For instance Kenneth Gladney who was a black conservative in St. Louis supposedly beaten up by "SEIU thugs," whilst protesting against Obama's health care initiative was apparently recently laid off and doesn't have any health insurance and now is asking for donations to help cover his hospital bills.
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/stlouiscitycounty/stor y/7C2B91CFCB7B4D398625760D0008E6EA?OpenDocument
I mean the right's supporters are so dumb it's actually funny.
How about a citation from a non-partisan source?
Oh yes, the left stifled debate when we went into Iraq. There was no debate because the left were being called ... what was the term? Oh yeah, UN-AMERICAN.
Wow...that'd be a great idea....if the US was a democracy. We're a representative republic....BIG difference.
So, you never bought into that "petition . . . for a redress of grievances" nonsense?
American is not a Democracy. It is a Republic. Do you know the difference? Democracy means mob rule. Learn the difference before you tell Americans how Democracies work.
So, you judge the protesters that don't want Socialized medicine shoved down their throats by uncaring politicians who have their own "special" health care, and will not be forced to take part in what the citizenry will suffer with to be attempting to overthrow the government? Where are you from? Are coups common where you come from? Your statement reveals your ignorance of how America is governed. It is governed by representatives that we elect to do just that. Represent us. When they fail to do so, we get angry, we get vocal, we make ourselves heard, even if we have to do so with the occasional protest. (Next thing, you'll be saying that resistance to Obamas destruction of health care is racially motivated.)
Our elected leaders are not listening to us. We are attempting to force them to do so and that means we are trying to overthrow the government?That's quite a leap there Pal. You clearly have no idea what the hell you are talking about.
Obama was elected,but he said nothing about socializing medicine against the wishes of the American people.
No one is whining. We are outraged that the people we elected to represent us are ignoring our wishes and are instead furthering their own political agendas/careers in hopes of currying favor and favors from the present administration
.And since when is an approximate 53 to 47 percent win on the part of Obama considered to be a "sound win"? He does not have a mandate to turn America in to a new Soviet Union.
No one is subverting public input except for the Union thugs and the Pelosi types that call regular American citizens protesting against having legislation they don't want forced upon them un-American. Who was beaten by thugs and put in a hospital for protesting against socialized medicine?
The St. Louis Tea Party movement is incensed that thugs from the Service Employees International Union (SEIU) beat up an African-American conservative that had come out to a recent anti-Obamacare protest. The attack sent the man to a local hospital.
Obama remains silent on his beating, but calls police officers "stupid" for arresting a black friend of his. Obama has a "snitch line" for people to report their fellow citizens for speaking out against socialized medicine. I suppose you're okay with that to.
We have been and are being betrayed by those that are supposed to protects us...shed light on the politicians that disregard the wishes and best interests of the American citizen.
Our government is supposed to fear us...that we might replace them with new representation. Now they plot openly to insure their unending re-election through the funding of radical groups like ACORN, already busted for voter fraud.
Our representatives call us un-American, violent, uninformed and dangerous. They have lost their fear of us as voters and treat us as a nuisance to be dealt with accordingly. Ignored. Demeaned. Dismissed as ignorant and unable to judge for ourselves what it best for us.
For the first time in my 53 years as an American, I'm beginning to fear my government. I don't like that feeling.
Obama is a liar and Truth is killing his agenda.
And...Obamas platform was not about health care. It was about bringing Americans together. Ha!
Who does Nancy Pelosi think she is
calling conservative protesters who disagree with her "Un-American?"
Joe McCarthy ?
Well babe if you had read the quote or listened when she spoke you'd realize she did none of those things.
Now you or anyone else could infer that from her statement to support you're point of view...but that's not what you're saying. You're putting words in her mouth.
These people have the first amendment confused with sedition.
Another gem from the angry guy. Mixing up everything and its opposite to the point of absurdity.
The general impression is that, according to Reihan Salam, the protesters at town hall meetings are fighting to have a health care system like the French one? I don't think so :o)
You didn't even read the article, did you?
Oh yes I did. And I paid enough attention to realize the title changed three times since it was first published.
This guy just compared the faux mobs to the civil rights movement, are you freaking kidding me?
I'm with you, I can admit the difference.
We agree on that.
Yeah. I found that comparison sickening.
That little chicken bone got caught in my throat too.
A succinct and cogent comparison! Rosa Parks was one woman....
Yes. Rosa Parks was one woman, who with great dignity, and without shouting down anyone else, simply refused to give up her seat on a bus. She quietly and powerfully made her point. Which takes a lot more fortitude than it does to down load instructions on how to obstruct effectively.
And abolition, and suffrage! I seriously have no idea how Reihan wrote that with a straight face, so I'm forced to guess he's being paid by the word.
He's here to "balance the coverage". I'm not sure why. I haven't seen any balance on FOX or MSNBC in years.
Yes, and if it was up to them there would NEVER have been any civil rights. These are the creeps who oppsoed it by the same tactics as now, intimidation. Well, guess what. I stood up to you right wing thugs in the 60s and I sure as hell can do it again.
You mean Dick Armey didn't subsidize the Civil Rights movement too? Grover Norquist didn't work hand in hand with the Southern Christian Leadership Conference?
I'll bet if they repeat this mantra often enough and loud enough; if Frank Luntz tells them to, it will become the truth eventually.
I think you need to read it again, Healthcare was not being compared to Civil Rights or Womens Rights or Gay and Lesbian rights, which, by the way are just as important. He was saying how the civil protest may have started small but became bigger than anyone could imagine and enough to change things as we see it. That happens when people read with closed minds.
Shouting down the speaker at a town hall meeting so that they are unable to speak is an outrage. Line up at the microphone and wait your turn to scream and rant.
( Repugs might have forgotten that when Ronald Reagan was told to shut up and that his microphone would be shut off, during a debate in 1980 where he was a speaker, he said, "I am paying for this microphone!!"
Reagan said later that demanding his say won him the nomination.)
The Porkulus Bill was just Nancy Pillosi's laundry list of left wing must-spends. The healthcare bill is really a chronic disease management bill, which will bankrupt the county. How can we stop our "leaders" from enacting a health care "rights" package that will mean everyone has access to the "best" (read: most expensive) care, with no "rationing" (read: ducking all the tough choices) and the government, which is bankrupt, has to pick up the bills? The dollar can't avoid collapsing forever, you know... Even the Chinese will dump their holdings at some point. Wake up ladies and gentlemen. Let's be adults, here. We must eat our spinach BEFORE we get desert! George Patton
Who said anything about the "best" care. We are talking basic care here, which is one hell of a lot more than people who have no care have right now. What makes you think all people are gluttons? The offenders appear to be the people who have ins. now, and have driven costs out of sight. Talk about rationing !
I'ts hugely ironic that the base that has been baited to oppose health care reform, including an optional public plan, are the very people who need such a plan. Goes to show you the level of public awareness/education about the issues. As long as the "base" thinks it's about opposing Obama on everything, they are only too happy to get up and rant. We need to look at the ugly underbelly of racism here, cynically fueled by big business interests.
Good Lord, disagreeing with Obama is racist now. What else will you think up? The majority don't agree with his politics anymore, he's finally shown his true colors off the campaign trail and it's sinking in.
I'm all for a basic care solution. But a small percentage of Americans are responsible something like 70 percent of US medical care expenses. And any time someone feels he or she doesn't have access to the best, it's a hot button "rationing" issue and Congress will end up enacting a health care rights package that will bankrupt the country. When all we really need, I agree, is an aspirin clinic type delivery system to treat basic ailments, particularly for kids, and VD (STDs) etc. We're going to get a system we can't afford, which will allow for things like hip replacements, etc. for people with one foot in the grave. You wait and see.... George Patton
If we go bankrupt enacting "patient's rights" then we deserve to.
I refuse to believe America CANNOT provide for the weakest amongst us the same way every other first world nation does. If it turns out to be true, then we are not, and never will be, a first world nation.
GPatton,
You write "But a small percentage of Americans are responsible something like 70 percent of US medical care expenses."
Will you please state your source or provide a link that supports that statement?
Where did you get your information from? You should actually do research on what drives the cost up. Uninsured who can't and won't pay the bills, Doctors who overcharge, People who sue every chance they get, and I can go on and on. I have a special needs child and have to pay out of pocket for alot of therapy the Ins. won't pay for and my mother is 65 and on S.S. and Medicare, which she paid for all her life to get those Benefits. Are they the people you say drove up the cost?
Exactly, we need to take our medicine and be fiscally prudent.
And by "we need to take our medicine"- I mean "We need to kill off the poor."
By be fiscally prudent, I mean "spend the same or more on less people."
Your imitation of the Republican underlying message is dead on.
I used to think rickjr82 was being ironic, but lately I think he actually believes this stuff. My reaction to reading this kind of stuff is to say "he must be joking" but there are many people who actually think this way.
Sounds like rickjr82 has spent the weekend ginning up on the Obama health care plan. Too bad Obama's supporters in Congress didn't read the thing.
Just hope rick doesn't end up on Rahm Emanuel's "no fly list" where the "fishy" people reported to the government are likely to end up.
How can you stop them? Next election - try to win it.
Hear hear.
So we shouldn't have affordable healthcare because Chinese debt-holders will punish us?
"Obamacare is an ill conceived mishmash" much like this article, but in it's defense it was written by many authors taking into account an opposition without a position.
What is the authors excuse?
Exactly ! openhand.
Hear hear.
It's so nice of TB and TDB to keep employing this guy in a time of great economic hardship when there must be soooo many other writers out there who actually know what they're talking about.
The French don't need a specific excuse to have a riot, they'll have one about anything. They're not on they're 5th Republic for no reason.
Speculating on possible public anger kind of glosses over the question of why, if peope wanted to get mad and riot against those in power who are denying them health-care, they're not storming a few company headquarters. You know, the places where the real power is.
Here's a thought, all those in Congress who vote against health-care reform should be made to give up their government plan and take their chances in the market. If it's good enough for the people.......
Oh come on, you don't think Tina is paying this guy actual money, do you?
Even the ones voting for it won't take the health care plan they are pushing on us....what does that tell you?
"the ones voting for it" and the ones voting against it, already have government health care.
Every movement of significance has involved tar and feathering? Really? Funny, I don't recall MLK calling his opponents Hitler and calling for his followers to carry guns to meetings.
And they are not fighting for their "beliefs"; they are fighting for misinformation intentionally fed to them by the powers that be. Show me where Obama's calling for "death panels. Show me where grandma and grandpa are going to be turned into Soylent Green and Trig Palin will be "offed".
Until I stop seeing video of these people screaming about "a government takeover of Medicare", I refuse to ascribe some sort of noble cause to them. Sadly, I'm afraid this uprising has more to do with a country that is rapidly changing and passing them by. They have an AA president...they need to learn to deal with it.
Excellent. This is not about beliefs. It's about opposing Obama, regardless of reason -- like trumped-up taxes he was going to inflict on the middle class and poor -- or now lies about "death panel" (Thank you, Palin, for your insightful analysis of 1000 pages of proposed health care reform.), this is rabble that has been incited to rant. It's about him, each time. Proof-positive that it's hellish to be "first" in ANY category. However much these yelling protesters don't want him in office, they lost. Obama is our president and is owed respect.
You earn respect young lad....he earned it with his sweet campaign song and he's losing it with his reality. Bush was owed respect as well in your argument....though very few have anything good on this post to say about him?
Natural-Selection, you must be very lonely.
Stutz....hardly lonely, though you'd like to think that.
I'm actually disappointed that the temptress of the tundra was so wrong. I could foresee us abandoning our elderly on ice floes off the north coast of Alasks,presumably with a developmentally disadvantaged child in each arm thereby solving two health care-related problems in one swell foop and providing polar bears with an alternative food source. It's too bad Jonathan Swift is long dead I'm sure he could come up with a modest proposal to solve this dilemma.
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These folks have been pissed off at the world since Clinton won the White House. How dare this country elect a Democrat when the Republican's are doing such a terrific job of screwing us? They are being fired up by the hate mongers on the right. If they weren't they would attend a Town Hall meeting and participate in a civilized discussion. But, they don't have any real questions about it. All they are interested in is disrupting and making sure no one gets health care.
That was well done, you put Clinton and screwing in the same post! What you all can't come to grips with is the possibility that these people aren't all plants and some really just disagree with the message? This country is not a complete ObamUtopia yet....well, maybe in this blog and northern California.
Well said, Natural! I see so many people crying for proof that Obama's plan isn't what these protesters are saying it is, yet they'll offer absolutely NO evidence that a single one of the CITIZENS exercising their rights of free speech is any kind of agent provocateur.
Hypocrisy at it's finest!!!
I have never agreed more that women and blacks are an "extreme and intemperate minority."
The article is so right, as soon as Govenment starts running health care- wages will stagnate and costs will increase.
We need to stay in our current health care golden age!
I can see the new rallying cry now: "No Healthcare without presentation (of a credit card)!"
Wages will stagnate and costs will increase? Why do you think GM went bankrupt? Why do you think GM moved so much production over the border to Canada? Why would American businesses want to be the only ones in the industrialized world to have to pay for health care?
And by the way, "government" thru Medicare, Medicaid, the VA, the military, not to mention federal employees including Congress, already has a huge slice of health care. Are those protesters at the meetings going to renounce Medicare because it is a socialist plot?
This guy just compared the faux mobs to the civil rights movement, are you freaking kidding me?
___________________________________________________
WHY is it always about race when someone disagrees with this President? Could it be possible... that others also enjoy rights and that not EVERYTHING is about race?
Salam is the one who wrapped himself in the mantle of racial justice
The fact that the GnOP is in its death throes and is still unwilling to admit they have no plan for any of this is why they are encouraging their "base" to riot. The really odd part is that their major whackjobs - Palin and Beck - are now asking the mob to ratchet it back a bit.
The only reason these people think they can get away with it is that they know they've got a base that will never accept a black family in the White House.
Please admire my restraint in the use of the caps key;-)
Once again, this guy is right on target. Un-American? Hardly. Un-democratic? I have not heard one protester demand that elections be suspended or Obama be thrown out of office. This is the recipricol of un-Democratic...this is constiuents trying to influence their democratically elected representatives who are not listening. I have not attended any of these meetings, but from what I see, the yelling starts when Congresspeople don't answer questions or try to same old attempts at answering with obfuscation. That isn't going to work anymore. These people are not plants, unlike the counter protesters who are paid, all wear the same color shirts, have pre-printed, professional signs and the same talking points. These are average Americans who are fed up. They see what is happening when lawyers try to fix healthcare. He is spot on about France. If we have healthcare politburos deciding the standard of care, we may get to keep our doctors, but our doctors will be limited in what they can provide. Trial lawyers will sue any doctor who deviates from the edicts of the politburo. There will be more lobbying than every to influence who is appointed to the polituros and what will be covered. The Democrats are dreaming if they think this is manufactured. They can spin the big lie all day long, but it won't work. People voted against something in the last election. They didn't vote for this. The big lie won't work again.
Protests based on ignorance are of no value.
Keep dreaming. Keep wishing. Keep hoping. These protests are real.
Amen brother....now stand-by to be called an ignorant racist and fascist for providing a well written and thought out argument. They're ObamaLemings...they go along with anything.
The only lemmings are the racists who long for the good old days when uppity minorities could be lynched as an example. These idiot mobs are the lynch mob re-invigorated.
when they have to resort to racism to criticize a black conservative for getting in the way of liberal union thug fists, that really says it all.
Well done BasPos, when all else fails, call a non-racist a racist and walk away....you liberals are quite entertaining...that's why I can't help checking these posts all the time. ;-)
Oh please. We're to believe this last week's outburst of angry elderly white protestors is somehow a spontaneous popular uprising? That everywhere across the nation people have miraculously decided to start behaving badly - in exactly the same manner - from coast to coast?
These protests have all the authenticity of Obama's Kenyan birth certificate. The playbook for disrupting these meetings is freely available online, and it describes perfectly the mob tactics we've seen used in these meetings. At times the poor teabagging protesters can't even pronounce their lobbyist-supplied talking points - that really reeks of genuine protest.
This is NOT about government involvement in health care - we've had Medicare, TriCare and others for years and most users are thankful those programs are available - this is about opposing a popularly ELECTED, progressive, black president.
"He is spot on about France" - What do you know about France? Have you ever been to France? Ever been treated in France? There are many great things in the US but health insurance and health care coverage is definitely not. Educate yourself about what's going in other countries (just look across the border in Canada) and you will understand something is very wrong with the US health care system. In no other developed countries, can you lose your coverage because you cost too much to the insurance companies, become bankrupt because of health care costs, or simply cannot afford to go to the doctor or the dentist. It is the reality for many Americans, but a foreign concept for most Europeans or Canadians.
I've received excellent government healthcare in Canada and now Taiwan - it is awesome and affordable. My friends from France tell me the French system, while not perfect, is pretty good and very affordable. Let me guess - you've never been to France?
Yes, I have been to France and yes I actually saw a doctor while I was there. Have you ever bothered to read in context? He wasn't talking about the care in France, he was talking about the amount of politics involved in health coverage. Learn to read.
Paristokyo - Good points. My earlier post was commenting on flyoverland's comments.
Flyoverland - The end result is political pressure FOR better health coverage not AGAINST health care coverage. In America you have insurance corporations spending huge amounts of money fighting reform of any kind so they can continue to profiteer at the expense of the people, and spreading outlandish lies to get the lunatic fringe upset about "death panels", "forced euthanasia", Stalinism and the link. A comparison to France is disingenuous; it's a completely different situation with polar opposite results.
again, you miss the point. The point is, assuming your socialist system is approved, it will not be doctors who decide what is covered, it will be politicians and their lobbyist masters who will circumvent the medical literature. You really have a problem staying on topic, don't you. Hopefully, ADD will continue to be covered.
Well said, sir!
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I am fine with people shouting at town halls. But, whatever they shout should make sense. Shouting "Obama scares me", "Health reform is socialism", "the government is going to kill my baby or my grandma with their death panels", "make the government take their hands off my Medicare"...these are not even remotely rational. If you're going to shout, please make it a rational argument that I can understand. I know I'm setting a high standard, but I think if we calm down and think about what really bothers us about health care reform, we could actually have an interesting and substantive debate.
"It's so easy right now to look at the melee on the right and discount it as pure political theater of the most absurdly ridiculous kind. It's a freaking puppet show. These people can't be serious. Sure, they're angry -- but they're also a minority, out of power and reduced to throwing tantrums. Grown-ups need to worry about them about as much as you'd worry about a furious five-year-old threatening to hold her breath until she turned blue.
Unfortunately, all the noise and bluster actually obscures the danger. These people are as serious as a lynch mob, and have already taken the first steps toward becoming one. And they're going to walk taller and louder and prouder now that their bumbling efforts at civil disobedience are being committed with the full sanction and support of the country's most powerful people, who are cynically using them in a last-ditch effort to save their own places of profit and prestige.
We've arrived. We are now parked on the exact spot where our best experts tell us full-blown fascism is born. Every day that the conservatives in Congress, the right-wing talking heads, and their noisy minions are allowed to hold up our ability to govern the country is another day we're slowly creeping across the final line beyond which, history tells us, no country has ever been able to return"
Sarah Robinson, Campaign for America's Future 8/7/09
http://www.alternet.org/module/printversion/141819
They took Mussolili's Bbrown Shirt playbook, and are working it like a sailor on leave in Bangkok with a lady of the evening.
Obviously not a student of history - It's Mussolini not Mussolili. IF Obama and his cabinet took away the basic rights of a minority group and put them in prison camps; IF they sent secret police to kidnap opposition leaders, protesters, union leaders, intellectuals and sent them to prison camps without trial where they would be executed or worked to death; IF they killed, tortured and denied citizens the right to a real trial, THEN you could accuse them of Nazi tactics. Until these things, or anything remotely similar happens - SHUT UP already about the Nazi references. It is very disrespectful of those who have died, or survived, or have lost loved ones to those butchers.
Who are these people to compare being CRITICISED to being PERSECUTED; they are completely different. It is obvious that you, or your family have no first hand experience. If you can't stand the heat - get out of the debate! But don't cry Fascism, it's called contrary opinion.
Cymatic must think it is Emily Post, Miss perfect prisspot.
Stick to the facts and i will surely call you out on any accidental typo. By the way, do you take SSRI's for your obsessive-compulsive disorder?
"The French have the health care system Americans desperately want" - What's worng with that? French health care system is rated as one of the best in the world (by the Economist, a British publication, no less). The way of life in France as a whole is much better than it is here in the US. I strongly believe that an affordable health care for everyone is part of the reason. Yes, there are strikes and people descend on the streets to express themselves, but I do not see that as any worse than angry middle-class retirees yelling at town halls, or angry people taking a gun and shooting at someone they disagree with.
Maybe you should move to France if it's so great over there.
And you may stay here until a clerk at your healyh insurance declares your survival is a danger to his/her boss' bonus and you die.
What that line really means is: We have nothing to learn from anybody. Just use this line - If __________ is so great, move there. People around the world learn from America, why can't America learn from the rest of the world too? When it comes to healthcare, the rest of the industrialized world is horrified. Other systems are more effective and cost less - and this can be verified with actual facts.
Canada, Switzerland, Denmark, France all leave America way behind in key indicators like infant mortality. It's ironic that many of those opposed to healthcare reform are strongly pro-life, yet these are the very reforms that have allowed other countries to reduce infant mortality.
I have a question: has anyone read a non-partisan analysis of the current health plan on the table? I have been struggling to find something crisp and clear on the subject.
Thanks in advance.
Been trying to read the bill myself, give it a try, it's quite entertaining and yes it allows commissions to make the med decisions also if anyone else is actually reading it can you explain why veterinary medicine is included page 908(other than the obvious Pelosi jokes)
This comment has been removed by The Daily Beast's editors.
Palingenesis.
Is this some attempt to be prophetic? Is this another bizarre attempt to link Obama with Hitler?! Like talking about displaying freedom and democracy to the world is now 'chillingly similar to Obama'? By this standard Ronald Reagan, Bush Sr., Bush Jr., and every president in American history would be comparable to Hitler as well.
I have a question: has anyone read a non-partisan analysis of the current health plan on the table? I have been struggling to find something crisp and clear on the subject.
***********************
Do you have something against reading one of the five thousand good newspapers in this country??? You can even read most of them on line.
You are welcome.
The Republican party began to canniblize itself when it catered to the the hypocritical religious right .Do what I say, not what I do has been their credo for decades. Do not bother using your brains.... just yell and o bscure any
chance of any reasonable debate of the subject.
Just say NO to anything the Democrats have to say. Just say a loud NO to anything and everything, everytime.
However, the GOP wouln't have gotten so crazy IF more people would have voted when it mattered in the 80s and 90s. Because so many people stayed home thinking their vote didn't matter, the loonies got control.
So if nothing else this tale of a party that's lost its way should remind everyone to VOTE and pay attention to what our government (national, state and local) are doing.
Things we once believed couldn't happen here have and we need to make sure never again does a party get so far away from the mainstream that it nearly destroys this nation.
Twenty percent of the American public is functionally illiterate. They're not able to read or properly interpret , any printed news source. They get their info from Rush and Sean. Is there any wonder they are sucked in by these frauds?
The republicans are the party of Fox cable and talk radio...It's all pom poms and mindless boosterism driven by the quest for the best ratings...If "rightwing" can make money, then extreme wing-nuttery, aka birthers, might make more money and it has...What begins as a good idea starts a movement and eventually turns into racket, to paraphrase Eric Hofer...Yesterday the National Review attempted to cap the toothpaste tube and editorially debunked the birthers argument point by point...But I think the crazy train has left the station and there's no one anywhere who can stop it.
If only all that intelligence and the literacy of Democrats translated into their being able to afford their own health insurance, right?
Again... silliness in comments. Ignorant Protesters? The shoe is on the other foot and and nobody wants to be accountable for their actions. Has anyone ever been to local union meeting, or seen union strikes? There is more violence and shouting then the townhall meetings we are hearing about. The answers these people receive from their representative regarding their tough questions equal that of no comment. Bringing up GM earlier is a great example. The reason why they went bankrupt... the union. Same with the airline industry... Anytime a company is unionized they are on a road to failure. Healthcare "reform" in the proposed manner, is a step towards socialism and unionization of the U.S. Let the people be heard!
Let the Free Market reign! End the oppression of the working man! If only government would get out of the way, the Invisible Hand of the Marketplace and American Ingenuity would save the Day! Well, that's what they've been trying for the last 8 years, and the Bosses you praise were not so successful.
Any American value-added export business now has to compete with businesses in other nations who do not have to worry about health care. If we want to compete with anyone more prosperous than Bangladesh, this will be an obstacle.
The Republican Party is disappearing because of race and class.
Republicans have traditionally been white, (male), and affluent.
The demographics of the nation have been changing drastically over the last 50 years.
More and more "minorities" of all kinds have grown in the United States.
There are more "have-nots" than "haves".
These groups are traditionally democrats.
The Republican Party has always been the party of "Big Business".
The Democratic Party has always been the party of the "Working People".
So many Republicans are paranoid.
But that wont be the main " illustration of the slow-motion decomposition of the GOP".
What is so strange that these obstructionists are not even listening to their duly elected representatives. They are not even bothering to getg in touh with the more enlightened Republicans among them.
Republican Lynch Mobs try to Destroy Healthcare Reform
Politicusa,com
Healthcare
Republican Party
Sarah Jones
U.S. Congress
First appointment to Death Panel.
See:
http://notionscapital.wordpress.com/2009/08/09/paula-abdul-named-to-obam a-death-panel/
The Republican Party started down that slippery slope with Ronald Reagan. He allowed the type of people that were extremist's to take it over.
Remember when the religious fanatics started spending so much time in the White House? A lot of us just quit voting for them in the 80's. They were no longer the party we had voted for in the 70's. They became filled with right wing extremists, religious nuts, hate filled people and every other wacko that this country could offer up .Considering that Nixon was a liar and an all around train wreck, when we elected Reagon we had already put up with the Republicans ten years too long .
Last Saturday,, a Republican Congressman named Kevin Brady held a town hall meeting in Texas for people interested in the health care reform.
You had to be there to really realize what is going on .
He talked about "the final solution" in the health care bill. Meaning of course that the Democrats were planning to kill all old people, sick and weak children.
I could go on and on, but you probably could not believe what I am saying.... I can hardly believe what I heard. So I would not blame you.
The news at ten covered part of Bradys meeting , and one woman said she was worried because her child had cerebral palsy and the government would probably euthanize him. Jeez...
I live in Texas, I have had a living will for twenty years. This is what is being discussed these days that is so misunderstood, although I think purposely. A Living Will simply states your desires if some calamity would happen to you.
Like a stroke, where you could live for twenty years on a feeding tube. Remember Terry Shrivo, the poor woman who lived for fifteen years like a vegetable? She did not have a Living Will or any directions as to how she would
live after being completely incapacitated. It took fifteen judges and the Supreme Court and twenty millions dollars to finally let her just slip away. Do you know that people have been known to live, completely incapacitated for thirty years?????
In the new health care proposal the Living Will explanations from your doctors will be paid for by your health plan. I received a form, free, from my Doctor twenty years ago... But some doctors charge for the advice and people cannot afford to pay for it. Please do not become just another idiot, listening to fools such as Palin and others who are calling this a final solution desiigned to kill all old people. Now she has extended her silly speeches to enclude the killing of children with deseases which will prevent them from being a successful productive member of society.
Intelligent people do not listen to baseless, fear producing rantings.
What is wrong with you? What makes you an expert on the Republican Party? What makes you an expert on any of this? Look at what the Democrat Party has become.I worry about my special needs child like Mrs. Palin, it will only get worse than it is now, which makes me an expert on that subject. The reform can be done without so much intrusion from the Government. Mr. Obama says "take politics out of it" but all he does with his Dem. colleagues is continue to insert it (EVERYDAY). He needs to take his own advice and start listening to all the people and not just the ones who actually voted for him. He is everyones President! Democrats should also listen, if they did and also knew what was in the bill so they could answer, I guarantee it would be more civil.
Thank you.
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