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Why the White Militias Are Back
AFP / Newscom
Town-hall protesters may say they’re angry about health-care plans, but their battle cries echo those of the militias that terrorized America in the '90s.
In the early 1990s, tens of thousands of Americans began organizing against what they believed was imminent totalitarianism. They saw the president as a criminal and a traitor, and they regularly compared him to Hitler. They stocked up on weapons and warned that gun control was merely the first step toward mass enslavement. They broadcast warnings about FEMA-built concentration camps and spoke of the coming of a new civil war.
Perhaps the biggest difference between the current militia resurgence and the ’90s version is that racial grievance now plays a much more explicit role.
If any of this sounds familiar, it’s because the militia movement is back. “Almost a decade after largely disappearing from public view, right-wing militias, ideologically driven tax defiers and sovereign citizens are appearing in large numbers around the country,” says a new report from the Southern Poverty Law Center. The report cites one law-enforcement-agency estimate that 50 new militia-training groups have appeared in less than two years. It quotes a federal law-enforcement official saying, “They’re not at the level we saw in ’94-’95. But this is the most significant growth we’ve seen in 10 to 12 years. All it’s lacking is a spark. I think it’s only a matter of time before you see threats and violence.”
This is the context in which the furious outbursts at health-care town halls should be understood. “I think things clearly have gotten worse even in the last couple of weeks,” says Mark Potok, a staff director at the Southern Poverty Law Center. “Legally or not, we have angry people with guns showing up at town-hall meetings with U.S. congressmen. It’s quite astounding. While these people aren’t necessarily directly connected to militias, they are operating on the basis of essentially the same ideas.”
This obviously does not mean that everyone who protests the Democrats’ plans for a health-care overhaul is a militia type. It simply means that the rhetoric dominating the protests comes straight out of the militia milieu. The militia movement was convinced that sinister elites were plotting to force murderous collectivism on an unwilling populace. They hated a federal government that they saw as being in thrall to foreign agents. The town-hall mobs’ cries about standing against despotism, their warnings of mass euthanasia, and their red-faced excoriations of the president owe much more to longstanding tropes of the far right than to anything contained in actual health-care bills.
There’s nothing, for example, in any version of health-care plans to support rumors of “death panels.” But they echo notions from militia culture. “There was a militia in Montana [in the 1990s] that said the government, in league with the New World Order, was devising and was going to implement a system in which human beings in the United States were going to be divided into seven classes,” says Potok. “One of those classes would be people permanently put on life-support systems so their organs would be harvested for the children of the elites.”
“This anger that you see taking place at town halls, this is similar to what we saw in the early ‘90s when these common-law courts would convene,” says Brian Levin, director of the Center for the Study of Hate & Extremism at California State University, San Bernardino, and a former police officer who often consults with law enforcement. So-called common-law courts were fixtures of the militia movements; they were set up by people who claimed to be “sovereign citizens” free from federal jurisdiction. Their ideology presupposed that the federal government had become evil, dictatorial, and illegitimate—and that it was close to cracking down on ordinary, patriotic Americans.
One can hear the same terror in the voices of town-hall protesters railing against government plans to “put them down.” “These people have come to believe, aided and abetted by certain mainstream commentators, that the United States is on the brink of martial law, that 'socialism' is about to take over the country,” says Potok. “People have been frightened to the point where they’re willing to arm themselves and talk about revolution.”
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BasPos
The GnOPs incited McVeigh in the Oklahoma City bombing by playing up Waco and Ruby Ridge. Now the presence of a black POTUS will drive them over the top. The wingnut personalities (too numerous to list) will make their wages on the fear and hate they inflame in their dullard audiences. Since they have no common sense, this entire part of our country must be watched and controlled, The sad part is that their hate makes them blind, and the GnOP has nowhere else to go for votes.
North49
BasPos, when you speak of watching and controlling other Americans you sound more like a drooling idiot than even those you claim need to be watched and controlled. You apparently overlook the main cause of the American Revolution - the over taxation of individuals by an overbearing power. Then it was the King of England today it is the extortion of layers of government. You don't think some segments of the American public is righteously fed up with the attitudes of the government today?
drstedman
Why were these patriots not trying to overthrow Reagan and Nixon and Eisenhower, all of whom's administrations taxed them higher than the current one?
Eugenian
http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/Taxes/P148855.asp
Hotfrostins
North49
God bless all your new found revelations about the gubbmint led by President Obama,,,, this "American Revolution" as you call it should have been speaking out and paying attention for the last 10 or more years. It is not until the shit hits the fan that all you whiner types are willing to jump on this band wagon,,, led by the very folks who helped deliver the current state of affairs. This is a chicken shit mob of johnny come lately racists portraying themselves as great patriots who are just plain fearful that the white society as they know it and want it to remain is crumbling at its foundation... Good Lord a black man is President and he is about to change everything...god it can only be bad, after all he is a Kenyan Communist.... take your BS and shove it. Most all of these whiners were silent all the while we were getting to the breaking point. Now they want to go radical? Give me a break, this is a fad fed by talking head brainwashing...it has no staying power.
crankycancergirl
Simply paying taxes was not the issue...rather, it was taxation without representation, and this does not apply to today. I believe it is patriotic to pay taxes. Why is it that a lefty like me, from NYC, is happy to pay taxes that fund things like our military and cops, while the right is so resentful of having to pay...?
al-nafs
Watch and control? No wonder the wingnuts are going crazy.
tehixe
While I agree that it's unwise to fuel their paranoia, I'd wager substantial money that the opinion of BasPos, the anonymous poster on The Daily Beast's comments page, is not going to have a visible effect. Nobody comes looking around to see what BasPos thinks. But they *do* listen to people like Rush Limbaugh, Glen Beck, and Michael Savage. And those people are all too willing to feed the paranoia of their viewers because it boosts their ratings. Not that the paranoid need mouthpieces though -- that's the meaning of the word paranoid, it's not based on the facts, it's a state of mental disorder.
Anyway, they do need to be watched, just as much as any other group that arms itself and declares its intent to do violence needs to be watched. I don't care who you are or what your adgenda is, if you claim that political violence is necessary or justified, I want the FBI to have a file on you, and I want them to be ready to swoop in and arrest you as soon as you take the first step beyond talk and start moving towards action. And we can be thankful that Obama's government is full of top experts instead of know-nothing cronies, they are well aware of the threats of home-grown terrorism, and whatever can be done within the law to keep us safe will be done.
isabella
"Since they have no common sense, this entire part of our country must be watched and controlled".
Can you be serious? It's your hatred for people with different views that needs controlling as well as the Southern Poverty Law Center's irresponsible pronouncements, in its desperate quest to remain relevant when real social progress has overtaken its mission.
It's hard to see how anyone could "play up" Waco, a stuff-up of criminal proportions generated by hysterical over-reaction in Washington. Just the kind of over-reaction you propose on a nation-wide scale.
The racist slur against anyone who doesn't support this administration's policies is just ignorant. Over 50% of Americans don't support the Healthcare legislation and even more are angry about the failure of the "stimulus".
Too many to watch and control, even for those with Stalinist/Fascist tendencies.
Here's a novel idea: Americans in power should listen to the concerns of ordinary Americans. I think I see signs that President Obama is doing that. Is that why you're angry?
johngaltmateyko
Fantastic article! This is exactly what we needed to add into the mix during the national debate on the proposed socialization of our health care industry... A maligning article that tries desperately to draw comparisons between opponents of Obamacare and crazed militia's. I think we would all be well served by turning the volume down on the degrading metaphors and name calling. Or do y'all think you're going to get your bill through congress on insults and white guilt?
I used the word "y'all" above because since I'm not for Obama's plan, I'm obviously a stupid, redneck, illiterate hick... I don't know the contraction that's used by the soulless, mindless, pawns of the insurance industry.
mcmchugh99
We progressives cannot give up, no matter what threats the other side makes. We tried it the conservative way for many years in this country and it ended in disaster. It's our turn now, and we will not waste this chance, even if the other side goes crazy.
We can't stop, no matter what happens. We have waited too long to give up now.
North49
According to the Cato Institute the American health care industry is the most heavily regulated industry in the economy. It does take a particularly deep "progressive" thinker to call for more government interference in an already highly regulated industry to correct the "problems of the free market".
bhavanibbana
The Cato Institute; Now there's a reputable, non-partisan, peer-reviewed source on health care.
al-nafs
Reform doesn't necessarily mean to add regulations. It primarily means to reorganize, and perhaps even simplified.
* cue people who don't believe that reform is necessary or possible while simultaneously working for its demise *
Hotfrostins
It take an insane ninny to think that if you let it alone it will repair itself. Its been tried,, by George Bushes. Its broke, its dragging us down as a country,,more now than ever...ands try mixing a little compassion with your Patriotism next time your sipping some Gin Beck... it truly is unAmerican to continue letting 50 American struggle with the cost of healthcare because they dont have insurance.
connie47
If the shoe fits ....
If you're going to refer to health insurance reform as *Obamacare*, maybe you'd be so good as to point out which of the bills currently being discussed is his? What? He wrote none of them? Zero? Wow, I didn't know that.
Actually, I did. You didn't.
johngaltmateyko
connie47 -- Well he is the one selling it, isn't he? He is the one that campaigned on it, right? But I guess you're correct, he has no culpability once so ever.
connie47
No, john, he is not selling *it*. There are multiple plans and he is not pushing any single one. He is talking about reforming the system. When he talks any provisions in bills, they are not from any one bill. Do you listen or just critique?
This comment has been removed by The Daily Beast's editors.
ktchase85
Can't argue with someone who throws out mostly quotes from whatever pundit he happens to listen to.
Juniusforte
What exactly is the Obama plan that you are against? The plan has not been fully drafted and there are several different plans in Congress right now.
What you probably you do not like is that Obama got elected.
Live with it nit wit.
VagrantPhilosopher
Any government intevervention into a free market (its not really free, its already heavily regulated), is bad.
Big government with big responsibilites equals inefficiency and waste.
RawhideRex
Yet here you are NOT explaining why you think Obama's plan is socialism and bad for the country....which sadly is the case across the country with these so-called town hall protesters. Do you even know why you dont like his plan? Or is it you just dont like him?
Sad part is "y'all" are just revealing yourselves to be un-patriotic, obstructionists. I ask you.... where the fuck were you during 8 years of Bush and his NON action on Healthcare? NOW you come out of the woodwork?
al-nafs
This is because their real intent is inaction. For whatever reason, they don't want any change to the current healthcare system at all.
And yea, on top of that they don't like the President personally. Because that's soooo relevant to their daily lives.
ryokisan
Woohoo! Excellent use of the F word ;) so true.
It's so true. Obama is trying to let Congress work through this bill and he is merely supporting reform. There is a lot of mistrust but instead of asking real questions (and some do) people are just yelling and speaking and taking the word of people who oppose him like Princess Sarah. Instead of saying, why do some people think that you are proposing what is being called a "death panel" they just start yelling about how he's gonna kill grandpa! About how boo hoo this is not 'their America' what the F!
and al-nafs they want inaction b/c if there is inaction it looks like the Pres has failed and the quicker they get back into power. There are a LOT of people out there who DO want Pres. Obama to fail. Maybe b/c of who he is, maybe not, maybe b/c they just disagree with what he supports but there are a lot of people out there who are going to fight on every single thing.
sophia5
"A key difference this time is that the federal government-the entity that almost the entire radical right views as its primary enemy-is headed by a black man,"
Is this the far left's "subtle" way
of saying the current "Mob"
of protesters have to be racists, because they're
conservative, and disagree with the
President, ONLY because he's black ?
It couldn't possibly have anything to do with actual policy ?
When the left finds it's agenda in trouble,
they seem to head straight for the convenient race baiting card.
al-nafs
Its not just because he's black. I'm sure they have at least "one black friend".
Its because he is successful. Thats why they oppose and fear anything and everything that he does.
I prefer the kool-aid drinkers to those that drink that hater-ade swill.
ryokisan
That's not what she was saying....She was saying that this is not Obama specific, that it has happened many times in the past but that Obama being black may play a part in SOME cases. She's not generalizing everyone...but do you really deny that there are some people out there that are scared b/c Obama is black? It would be naive to think that is not true. No one is saying everything about this is race, but it very well could be for some people. Especially those who thought and STILL think he is a secret Muslim born in Kenya for goodness sake! I mean, I am a big supporter of a public option but if this thing happens without one, ok as long as other important things are met.
People keep saying they are acting the way b/c the 'elitist' government isn't listening, but Bush didn't listen to anyone. And besides, when people are just yelling about the country not being 'their america' and how Obama is a socialist and calling this 'Obamacare' then you are SAYING anything. Ask real questions. I respect the people who do that. Like the guy today who said you can't tell us you can pay for this without raising taxes....how are you going to pay for this. Nice, calm, sensible question. That would help so much more. But then we might not see the clip on Hannity.
ryokisan
Also, for some reason. Freedman or something people tend to really mistrust people who are not ridiculously selfish. They seem to think that if you aren't out for all you can get personally then something must be wrong....How f'ed up is that?
eze666
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "actual policy" because all I hear is shouting meaningless slogans and insults and vitriol. Whenever I hear anything about actual policy, it turns out to be a widely discredited rumor/ scare tactic that the "left wing media" runs on cable news all the time, so pundits can waste time debunking BS, making it seem legitimate to some - after all, if they're debating it, it's debatable, right?
Let's hear why we don't have to reform health care, or what specific, and yes, actual part or parts of the bill that protesters find offensive? And what, exactly, is so great all of the sudden about insurance companies? The ones that dump you for "pre-existing conditions" and deny care if and when you become too expensive? The ones no working but poor and many middle class people could never afford without a job? The ones where you and your family go bankrupt if you have a devastating medical injury or illness?
If, however, you are reasonably conscious and believe we do need to reform health care, what specifically, that is being proposed, do you disagree with? What, actually, do you agree with? What could be changed? How can we compromise?
Hint: shouting "socialist/communist/marxist/fascist/nazi," besides not making any sense, is not a reasonable answer to these questions. Accusing the President of the United States of supporting euthanasia for senior citizens and the disables is not a reasonable answer to these questions. Stockpiling ammunition and weapons is not a reasonable answer to these questions.
You want to talk about actual policy, then talk about actual policy. You want to get defensive when someone implies you might have racist sentiments, talk to your therapist. Oh, I forgot, Real Americans don't have therapists, only liberal elites in the big city where they work on destroying your values and freedom constantly while eating arugula and pate. You're all so sane and reasonable already.
clubed60090
Perhaps if the people opposing the plan actually talked about 'actual policy' there might be a basis to believe that race is not a motivating factor.
Of course, most people are not racists overtly - but racism influences all of us. It is an insidious reality in the background of all of us that issues of race do factor in our 'comfort level'. Even in well meaning- equality minded people, there can be a feeling of suspicsion and resentment when someone we don't consider to be entitled to it, is more successful, richer and more powerful than us.
If you aren't conscious that these feelings are present within you, you can't perceive how they influence what you believe to be true or right.
And, if you happen to be someone who, for whatever reason, actually believes that black people don't deserve positions of power and authority, I'm can see how the fact of President Obama could make them feel really bad, scared and angry. I can understand those feelings. Bu what do they do with those feelings? In our society, it's would be very difficult to say that you don't like Obama because he's black - so what happens? Most people have worked so very hard to avoid saying that anything has to do with his race - it's almost odd how it doesn't really get mentioned - the big reality that nobody talks about. So where do those feelings go? Every other thing you may not like gets magnified in importance and distorted in meaning against that race backdrop, and people grasp at the words and labels that are acceptable to express hate against - like 'Nazi" and 'facist' and 'socialist'. It doesn't matter one bit that the meaning of those words has no relationship to the thing they are applied to. They are simply tools to express that fear and anger. I get that.
What worries me, and frankly, makes me sad, is that these fearful people work so hard to reinforce the walls of their own prisons of mis-perception, and they work so hard to drag other people inside with them that they are willing - anxious even - to 'throw the baby out with the bathwater' and don't focus on 'actual policy'.
Ironically, the things that the fearful screamers accuse the progressives of are the very things that they themselves actually do. They accuse us of being 'un-American' when it is they who are trying to stop genuine reasoned debate.
It is they who deny 'majority rules' by refusing to accept that the democratically elected President is pursuing the very change he was voted into office to do.
It is they who rail against government sticking it's nose into private people's lives, but encourage people to kill and threaten abortion doctors or work to institute laws that deny equal rights to gay people because they believe they have a God-given right to require by law that everyone else complies with their own personal judgements on these matters. Their perception of 'religious freedom' is their freedom to impose their religious beliefs on the rest of us.
Their perception of democracy appears to be the same - we all can have democracy as long as we comply with their personal judgements, and if we don't they will yell and scream to stop us from doing - well - anything.
It is these right-wingers who moan over the loss of 'their America' by encouraging people to threaten (put the fear of God) in our elected officials as they work to represent the people who elected them - how very American and democratic - just like what the brown shirts did in Germany leading up to WWII. Where are the Republican leaders - are they diffusing this kind of thing? No
I see this behavior as hypocracy - but I don't think they see it that way because they are so very wrapped up in their own reflection repeating their own fears, that they simply do not have any perspective outside themselves. I think that is very sad.
halvenaught
One-sided sensationalized journalism such as yours sure doesn't help clear the air any. All your writing does is make it seem like anyone who goes against the "establishment" in any way, shape or form is now akin to a militia member. I for one do not believe in aliens, a Bush/Nazi connection, or that Obama is the messiah. But I do believe that the government is heavily influenced by the Federal Reserve. According to your standards, that makes me a member of an white militia movement. The problem with this article and with this country, is that there can only ever be 2 sides, black and white, good and bad; I prefer to live in the grey zone of freedom of thought, of possibility, of maybe, thank you very much.
jomama
It's not sensationalist if there are more militias forming. That you do not believe that Obama is the messiah, does not make you anything. C'mon. Nobody believes Obama is the Messiah, however, that a black man can hold that position only 140 yrs after slavery is a Messianic sign for most. Since the election, the number of black people attending school PTA meetings has doubled. Get it? Most militia people are nutjobs.
ChangeTheRide
Great point. Life is complicated. I consider myself very liberal socially, but fiscally speaking, I'm conservative. I don't like all the spending and giving money away to banks and car companies that blew it. I also don't like my tax dollars going to multi-million dollar fighter jets that we never use. I also think the FED is a private bank that is robbing us. Why do we have to introduce a bill to authorize an audit? They are hiding something. That's not a "conspiracy theory". That word is thrown around carelessly with the intention of slandering an opposing view. Audit the FED!
ryokisan
Your statement would be....okay if you said something like....that Obama was born in Kenya or something like that.....
semolinapilchard
To the above commenters: you fine folks are another example of some Americans refusing to read what's in front of them. Sensationalist? The author reported FACTS and provided SOURCES. The parallel is there, and it's not going to cease to exist just because you say it doesn't.
Instead of victimizing yourselves everytime a Beast article that uses facts and backs them up is posted, READ. COMPREHEND. MAKE CALM, LOGICAL ASSUMPTIONS. Sometimes, the truth hurts. I don't understand why some of you enjoy digging yourselves deeper and deeper.
mcmchugh99
I want the conservatives to know something very important. We progressives had to live under conservative rule for three decades, including Reagan and Bush Junior. Now their system of free market capitalism has collapsed and is only being propped up by the federal government.
We had to endure your brand of conservatism for so long that we can endure it no more. We have waited a long time to pass these reforms, and WE WILL NOT BE DENIED.
We can't give up. We can't, no matter what happens. We won't be denied our chance this time, no matter what anyone does. That's just the way it is, no matter what happens. We will not be denied this time by anyone.
Khnum21
i am with you 100% mcmchugh99! i don't care if these right-wing racist basterds want to dust up from under their rock just becuase their side lost the election! i am not sacrificing my right as an American to vote in the candidate and agenda that believe is best! i am proud to be liberal, i am proud of who i voted into office, i will be proud to see him succeed with my full support no matter what that support may be!
f*ck these redneck militias, this country will never bend to their will!
Ritarita
I'm on the train too
Mchugh-
Screw them.
Look what they did.
JDK-JDK
I'm traditionally in the middle as far as politics go, but I am right with you.
When I was young, I considered myself a Republican. But with each passing year for the past 20, they have driven me further away. Now I have a deep-seated hatred for any and all political parties as I believe the cordoning off of citizens into groups is exactly what has led us to where we are, and is exactly what you do to people that you want to control... divide and conquer.
But now I am SO against EVERYTHING the GOP stands for that I will fight for the Dems. Then, when they take true power, I can rest back in the middle again.
I had to make a choice... if given the extremes of either party, which would I be happier living in? For me, its the Dems... at least they are friendly when stabbing in the back. As well, the Dems will take 'wayward' souls into their flock, even if each believes differently on certain issues. The GOP is plain evil anymore. Ignorance is evil.
AlwaysOptimistic
You are singing my song JDK....I have been an Independent for 34 years, voting for the person, not the party. However, the GOP, since being hijacked by the Christian right, has gone off the rails. I find the GOP has become the party of "hate" and only care about "large" corporations. I, too, will fight for the Democrats agenda, until the GOP come to their senses or implodes.
We need a new strong third party..
b2brian
Such harsh rhetoric-
Better be careful or
Tina will say
You are all fat & cranky
Ritarita
Nah.
That's just patriotism.
You don't want to see me
When I'm cranky.
al-nafs
I dunno Tina/Rita
Passions run high
An even keeled manner is hot
Are you single?
ryokisan
Yeah, the only thing that bothers me is that it seems those who are in office now still seem like they are trying to prop back up this economy that really doesn't work. It would make me happier if we looked mre to sustainability than exponential growth.
ryokisan
Maybe if people starting FARMING like Jefferson thought they should and the government/states incentivized more local food production and distribution that would be better, but no we think the only think that could be right is buy buy buy. buy cheap shit and when it goes bad, buy some more. buy way more than we need, don't save, just buy like crazy.
Margot62
This conservative hate mongering must stop.
I do not agree with socializing medicine, but I am neither a white supremacist or a religious fanatic or whatever it is you're painting conscientious objectors out to be. I am a 40-something soccer Mom whose ideas and values just happen to differ from yours. Last time I checked, it was perfectly American to disagree with you. And not only that, but it's within my rights--and my duty--to vocalize my dissension. In fact, that is what makes this country what it is.
I know the liberals of this country hope to change its very fabric---the ideals that our country was founded on. But I have a voice, and until speaking out is outlawed (which I expect any time now--look at how this country is treating anyone who disagrees with this socialized health care bill) I will continue to use it. You will not force me into submission. You will not overlook my dissent.
Branding anyone who disagrees with you to be a "nut case" or a "hater" or a "supremicst" is beyond delusional. You can't expect everyone to be on board with such a sweeping change. This isn't communism. Our thoughts count, don't they?
jasedwards32
Yes, perfectly American to disagree with us. I must have imagined hearing your side call anybody that disagreed with you the last 8 years "un-american". I don't think you guys are un-american though, I just think you are all selfish, greedy, narrow minded and retarded.
This user is no longer registered.
n--Y--toodogstruthiness2
Brava Margot62! There is hope for this country.
Juniusforte
There is hope for this country...? If things remain the same the decline will accelerate so fast that conservatives will be living on caves armed up to their teeth and awaiting their rapture. Locos.
ryokisan
What EXACTLY. I WANT YOU TO TELL ME EXACTLY what in the past 6 months that this man has been president is suddenly so fucking different than it has been in the past. And don't you even DARE talk about bailouts b/c Bush was going down that road too. So what is it? What has changed so dramatically that you are worried for this country? that this country needs so much hope? What is it? Where you out there saying this when the Patriot act happened? When Muslim Americans were being harshly discriminated against b/c of their ethnicity? When Cheney was trying to get military sent to upstate New York? When the adminstration overlooked reports about possible terrorist attacks? When the whole world hated us? as Dennis Kucinich woudl say...WAKE UP
PinkoLefty
You are absolutely allowed to disagree. I think I speak for the majority when I say that.
Now, with that out of the way, can you give your reasons for disagreement? Will you enter into an honest, rational argument with the tacit agreement that you could possibly be persuaded to change your mind? In other words, is there any point to rational discussion, or are demagoguery and regional populism all that we have left in this country?
If one side can't be persuaded by the other then the losing side is left to suffer the tyranny of the majority. That losing side must perceive itself to be part and parcel of a political union with the winning side. If those on the losing side do not acquiesce to the democratically arrived at solution, then it may be time to, rather than debate health care, begin discussions on how best to isolate the two sides from each other.
I think we'd all like to have a real discussion on the issues rather than seeing a continuation of the name-calling and tantrums. This whole thing is getting completely out of control. Perhaps in the long run our differences are irreconcilable, but let's keep trying.
ryokisan
Thank you PinkoLefty, which is exactly why Obama wanted Congress to craft this thing and yet he is villified for that as well. I have no problem with people speaking their mind but SAY something. let's talk instaed of JUST protest.
beastie13
I agree the hate-mongering on BOTH sides must stop. As a Democrat I think people across the country have more in common than not.
I think fiscal conservatives would be happy to learn more details about single-payer health care for all (HR 676). The health care industry eats up $2.3 trillion annually - 16.5% of our GDP-far more than any other country spends on health care - yet the WHO ranks US health care only 37th among nations, on par with Serbia. And we have one of the highest infant mortality rates of all industrialized nations.
While revenue is needed for a health care overhaul, our taxes would be reduced in other areas such as federal, state, county, town and school budgets, because insurance premimum profits would evaporate.
Imagine how Health Care for All would remove the burden from so many hardworking and deserving people and help stabilize our communities:
For the working poor (some of whom work 2 jobs) but can only get gov't health care if they become completely destitute.
For moms who might want to stay at home.
Or the college woman who finds herself pregnant - she might be more inclined to have a child knowing gov't health care coverage is available to her AND her child.
For young people who can't get health insurance because asthma is considered a preexisting condition.
For laid off workers who have lost health insurance and now face losing their homes or paying for the treatment they need to live.
For families whose child may have suffered in a major car crash.
For part-time workers.
For families holding benefits for a child or spouse to pay for more chemo denied by their insurance company.
For Americans struggling with mental health.
For the 3000 who traveled to Wise, Virginia to get Rural Area Medical care from 14,000 volunteer doctors, dentists and eye doctors.
Doing it right means getting it all for less: medical, dental, vision and mental health care for ALL from private doctors of our choice AND for 20%-30% less than we pay now.
PS our tax dollars have already paid for the computer system the VA hospital uses---considered the best. As one VA tech said - it is available on disc for no additional charge - let's use it.
suzannewynn
Bravo!!!!! So well said and I could not have said it better myself!
This craziness going around the country is so misguided and it concerns me that the some of the most deserving of these benefits children and the elderly (who are scared because they are listening to people that are purposely lying, which is underhanded and unethical to say the least) will suffer the most IF WE DO NOT PASS THIS HEALTHCARE REFORM NOW.
I think what gets me the most about this is the misguided thought that other people will have to pay for their uninsured neighbors if this passes--HELLO PEOPLE WE ARE ALREADY PAYING FOR THE UNINSURED--like Obama says if we can get people preventative medicine we will cut costs on a huge scale!
Not to mention how is it we are the richest country in the world yet we have one of the worst infant mortality rates in the world????
ryokisan
Bravo, excellent job and very true. People like to talk about how horrible a universal program would be without looking at all the good that can come out of it and all the good that have already come out of it. I work in healthcare and most people WISH they had a system as good as the VA and what's even better about that is that all the systems are same so the care for hte patient is better b/c wherever you go, your provider can access your history quickly and easily....better care.
Mashed
"know the liberals of this country hope to change its very fabric---the ideals that our country was founded on. But I have a voice, and until speaking out is outlawed (which I expect any time now--look at how this country is treating anyone who disagrees with this socialized health care bill)"
cant you see how nonsensical and paranoid this is?
you expect freedom of speech to be outlawed? what?
look how people speaking out are being treated? like how are they being treated? are they being thrown in concentration camps or something and I missed it? If you mean the article, thats just FREE SPEECH IN ACTION.
change the countries very fabric? think about it, look, we have social security, medicare, unemployment, etc.. how is an expanded government health plan going to fundamentally change the fabric of society? we already have loads of gov't programs, roads schools, libraries, etc.. lady, someone is deceiving you.. america isn't going to fundamentally change, trust me, I'm sure it will still be a plenty rough place where you mostly have to make it on your own.
ryokisan
You know what Margot? Our country was not founded on corporations and private industry having a stranglehold on our government our the people....
WandaJeeter
Conservatives who whine and pout about being categorized with their radical brethren make me laugh, since they're invariably the ones who lumped anyone critical of Bushy as "unAmerican left-wing loonies". Here we have a soccer mommy who starts out claiming to be a voice of reason, and then by paragraph two is actually hysterically moaning that freedom of expression will soon be illegal. What a joke, when it was the Republicans who couldn't tolerate any dissent whatsoever. Get real.
Holland
Margot62,
This country, and Democracy more broadly, was founded on a wise blend of Conservative and Liberal values.
That religion is at least on of the wise anchors of our nation is a Conservative notion, and true enough.
That we are free to practice any religion, or choose to not indulge, is a Liberal notion.
That we can seek life, liberty, and happiness in the pursuit of perfecting ourselves as individual human beings is distinctly Liberal (as compared to Conservative notion that we remain collectively loyal to the King at all cost and be taxed into the grave).
Our country is a Liberal Democracy founded on Republican principles. Our economy is a Liberal Economic system founded on the ideal that we all deserve the chance to own land and care for our family with some measure of economic stability if not obscene abundance.
No, not every Conservative is a lunatic. But right now the worst of your party is pulling those that are not into the mud, and trying to pull the rest of the country down with them. Their is no dignity in their tactics or respect for their fellow citizens in the debate. They're freaked out because the world and privilege they assumed was only theirs by birthright is changing. "Socialist medicine" is not they're real concern (even if they don't know it). Many of the loudest protestors are on Medicare or Medicaid. While I'll reserve any judgement of your motivations, these lunatics are fighting a contrarian agenda. If the Democrats support it, they will reject it out of irrational fear and spite.
Your thoughts do count but not when it's done with the threat of violence. If you'll counsel your allies to discuss rather then shout, to question rather then accuse (and, yes, some questions are framed as accusations), and to listen rather then reject, I'm sure Democrats and some Liberals will do the same (granted, some Liberals are nut jobs also). Until then, daring to note and reject the mob tactics of the far right--tactics which Edmond Burke, the founder of the Conservative movement in the 18th Century, counseled against--is the duty of every American who values community over hysteria.
mrbadexample
Gosh--conservatives and other rightwing folks don't like being lumped in with militia men, but anybody who supports Obama is a Socialist or Stalinist. Until conservatives and their spokespeople in the rightwing media denounces threats of violence and people showing up to town meetings while packing heat, they're part of the problem. And frankly, I don't see how such distancing is possible, what with Glenn Beck joking about poisoning Nancy Pelosi and O'Reilly vilifying Dr. Tiller and then pretending his rhetoric didn't turn up the threat Tiller faced.
truthiness2
"I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." Hillary Clinton 2003
Come to think of it, it was not only debate. There were fires set, storefronts defaced and all kinds of mischief courtesy of a number of left wing "citizens". Hmm. Is this article onesided?
Taznc1
I think saying America was terrorized by these militias is a slight exageration. And I love the first response "Since they have no common sense, this entire part of our country must be watched and controlled,"
That should calm them down.
PinkoLefty
Truthiness2,
I'm confused by your second paragraph. To what and whom are you referring? I'm not being facetious here. I really don't know.
mrbadexample
The charge of arson and vandalism is pretty broad. There have been occasions (Seattle and the WTO in the 1990s, some ELF actions) where there was vandalism and (in the case of ELF) arson. These actions were denounced by pretty much everyone on the left side of the spectrum, the groups responsible were minimalized, and people were arrested and convicted. Where's the denunciation of such violence on the right? Do BillO or Rush thump their chests with outrage about the death of Dr. Tiller?
robjh1
This is not good. The rhetoric needs to be lowered. People are angry not just at healthcare but the economy as well. This is clearly misplaced aggression.
"and we are not saved..."
tumbleweed
Every American has the right to ask questions and disagree with anything the government does. It is every American's right to have their own opinion! But, it's also their responsibility to do it in a civilized manner. To ask serious questions about health care reform that's their right and there concerns. But, I have yet to hear a serious question that these town hall protesters are asking. All they do is spout the same tired old outrageous claims they have heard from the right wing fear machine. Most of which is so over the top it's hard to believe anyone takes these people seriously. What I see coming out of these town hall meeting is straight out of the early 90's. All the buzz words I heard almost two decades ago. I know my son a Republican spent the whole decade foaming at the mouth over imagined wrongs the government was doing. To the point of making himself sick. The biggest evil here is not the federal government it is the right wing fear machine and their tactics, They are inciting these crowds with their hate rhetoric and one of these days someone is going to get hurt. They will be completely responsible.
shortcourse
@tumbleweed
You are the exact reason for the frustration....You say you yet have to hear one serious question and that they spout the same tired claims from the right wing machines....I saw those people reading from the frickin HR3200 and I heard legitimate questions asked concerning that piece of proposed legislation. You are inciting with your lies and leftist rhetoric.
ryokisan
no....when people who do read from the bill ask serious qeustions, that is wonderful. I think what we are talking about here are people who are shouting claims of socialism and 'death panels' are actually SHAKING with rage and this need to just scream. they are out there, the media has been showing them. those are the people these articles are about. Not those with rational questions regarding the proposals that are out there. THAT is what the town halls are for and THAT is good. Lots of what is being said IS based on absolutley ridiculous suggestions of the right wing machine. What sarah palin said is absolutley outrageous. And all the people who were so keen to go check out politifact during the campaign to show that Obama made plenty of mistakes or mispoke....go check out their site. Look at the pants on fire rating for this ridiculous death panel crap. But suddenly I guess they aren't trustworthy.
Did you hear the guy today (and he was calm and rational) but he actually said he gets his news from cable news b/c all the other networks have too much 'spin'. I like to think I'm pretty independant. I don't back all democrats or hate all republicans. But I have NEVER in my life seen a network as 'Spun' as Fox! It's like people beleive they don't give any spin just b/c they so so! come on....I'm not saying other channels don't have some spin but they (FOX) feed their freakin' families on it!
aackc1
This is right out of the liberal playbook... another slanted article. Its a disgrace.
frontman9000
Slanted article? I guess if something is truthful it must be liberally biased.
suzannewynn
aackc1-- it takes the right playbook to understand the left playbook huh???
And there are no right slanted articles are there??? It is such a disgrace that the right (apparently like yourself) do not calming talk and have a serioius discussion no people like you like to just criticize. I guess you have healthcare and don't care if 50 million Americans do huh??
Why don't you add to the discussion instead of announcing "Its a disgrace" like you are a father disgused with his unruly children! People like you make me sick to my stomach and make me keep up the fight to get my children the healthcare they deserve!!!!
al19454
Sounds to me like there is an insurgency starting to take root in the country I love. To those of you that espose the overthrow of our elected President because of racicial intolerance and out-right bigotry; Beware I say.
ryokisan
Wow, that is nice....Beware....
Insurgeency? That goes right along with the Fox spin. Did you hear the guy on Hannity the other night talking about how the bill would be killed by people 'terrorizing' their representatives until the august break is over? But no, they don't incite, they don't have any spin....right.
Why is it that words like insurgency and terrorism are bad words when your government is ready to take away privacy right and take a country to war without congress but they suddenly become good words when paranoid people whose political party are out of office don't like the policies of the dominant party?
CaptainChaos
i am a member of the "rightwing lunatic fringe."
what you see at these town halls goes farther than healthcare.
many people like me see this as forcing us to become more dependent on the government.
we don't want to be like those on wellfare, food stamps and social security.
there are enough "dependents" to make the legislation go through.
The government will say "you have to pay or else."
we will say "no."
the standoff will begin.
the Founders knew that the only way to keep the government in check is to have an armed citizenry.
the Second Amendment keeps the balance.
the more the government pushes,
the more defensive those like me will get.
this is not a radical idea, but part of our national heritage (see the Wiskey Rebellion and Hamilton's New Army).
this fight is not something evil, but may be necessary.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- T. Jefferson
the fact is that if you want to be part of this healthcare plan,
find a way to leave us out of it and
DON'T MAKE US PAY FOR YOUR DECISION.
MariosRight
So instead of coming to the table with new ideas rather than the same old stuff that didn't work and ran the country into the ditch, rather than participating in the democratic process, you stock up on guns and ammo, cover your faces, and play soldier in the woods. You and your confederates write ominous posts on the boards trying to intimidate the rest of us into believing we had better see it your way, or else. You do not want your money going to govt programs, but how many of of your militia members are collecting disability, unemployment, medicaid, or medicare?
You are nothing but the American Taliban whose philosophy is do it our way or else you will come out with your guns, not to mention the fact that having a black man as Commander in Chief really grates your thighs.
The majority of you don't have the cajones to come out in public in your masks and jackboots, but you hope you can influence some of the goobers like McVeigh to do your dirty work.
Cowards and traitors hide behind masks and wrap themselves in the Flag!
That blood under the tree of liberty will most likely be yours.
CaptainChaos
you are wrong.
my philosophy is just "leave me the phk alone!"
as "masks' go, you just made our argument for opposing gun registration.
the goverment cannot make a calculation for victory if it does not know how many opponents it faces.
look into what happened in Zimbabwe.
as to your allegation that i am racist,
you don't know me, so i will not try to prove that i am not.
the race of the president is immaterial.
its the government itself that is the problem.
Republicans in power brought us an accumulation of wealth in the hands of the few, blatant imperialism and death.
Democrats in power seek to impoverish the population and make it dependent on the government.
the legislation passed by both parties is the result of interests in conflict of the citizenry (see bigpharma and healthcare reform, bigoil and iraq, insurance and tort reform).
both parties are on the same "team" and are actual adversaries to each free citizen.
MariosRight
Zimbabwe? Puleeze. You are making that comparison to life and laws in the US?
So you want to be left alone. Does that mean since you will not contribute to the public good, you will not travel our roads, use any public services, or should you suffer some sad fate in the twists and turns of life, refuse help of any public agency? As an example, some act of God that wipes you out?
No, you will be the first one in line when it comes to that, and your "philosophy" will instantly and conveniently change.
Its interesting that you cannot even support controls on Big Pharma and Insurance companies you say are against the interests of the citizenry.
You are full of contradictions. Pay your fair share, because that is the price to live in a truly free country.
Also, no one I know is afraid of your militias. Fortunately, our and your tax money support strong law enforcement and military agencies that will crush you like a bug.
roman1
We are participating and when we do you guys have the nerve to call us anti-American. Real people have real concerns but all you guys on the so called "tolerant left" can do is demonize, trash and smear anyone who doesn't agree with you. Isn't that what you like to accuse conservatives of doing all the time? Call us all the names you will most people I know don't like being call Nazis, racists, or right wing extremists and we all vote. Oh ya by the way not everyone that is against government run healthcare is a Republican or even conservative many are independents who voted Democrat in the last election. So keep up the attacks I doubt they will be voting for you guys in the next election. They don't like being demonized either.
frontman9000
CaptainChaos is a great example of a conservatard....
Do you really think your guns will protect you from the Government? Can your Smith & Wesson beat an armored tank or the National Guard? If you read the 2nd Amendment you would see that it refers to armed citizens as a "standing militia" because in 1791 when the amendment was ratifeied there was no army to protect the state. There is no mention of protecting citizens against the government. It is no different than the way Evangelicals twist vague statements in the Bible to bend to their ideology. The same with your "quote from Thomas Jefferson. What logic do you employ to equate our president to a tyrant? Is it because he wants to give the people a safety net for themselves and their families? What rights of yours has he tried to take away? As much as I abhor guns, I have never heard Obama make any statements about taking them away from idiots like you. Maybe you feel your rights are being infringed upon because he wants to control the rising costs of your healthcare and give you another choice (on top of the ones you already have) in case you lose your job or God forbid, want to start your own business and can't afford the outrageous premiums your healthcare provider will bestow upon you.
I guess it doesn't matter if you don't where your tax dollars get spent now. As long as they don't go to help you or your fellow citizens. Because we all know that selfishness and greed are the cornerstones of your party.
The government is for the people by the people. The people elected a black man who cares about the working class. Get over it! That's democracy! I certainly didn't choose Bush but I learned to deal with it while I waited for my next chance to vote.
Another thing that you conservatards love to do is cast anyone who needs some sort of assistance as a lazy welfare recipient or someone who is not interested in working. I guess random sh*t doesn't happen to real people in real life. Debilitating illnesses and job losses only happen to those that have somehow deserved it.
As the writer of the article points out, the repubs did the same thing to FDR when he was trying to pass the "New Deal" and they did it to LBJ when he wanted to pass civil rights. But I guess if you had your way you would remove those civil benchmarks from American culture in spite of the millions who have and continue to benefit from those programs.
Like most conservatards, you wear your ignorance with pride and arrogance. Hence, open-minded thinkers like myself are, as your kind describe; elitist.
CaptainChaos
MariosRight:
"Also, no one I know is afraid of your militias. Fortunately, our and your tax money support strong law enforcement and military agencies that will crush you like a bug"
i am not a member of a militia.
don't be so confident in your law enforcement and military agencies.
see what is happening in Mexico right now.
tanks, helicopters and an army can't beat the cartels.
also, you are counting on the members of law enforcement and military agencies being willing to attack their own citizens.
when things get face-to-face, i doubt they will do anything.
could Viche actually attack the French Resistance? no.
universal healthcare is the third rail of american politics.
al-nafs
Its funny how a word that is essentially a positive description, such as 'elite', can be used with such disdain. Perhaps they meant to use the word 'arrogant'.
Personally, I want a highly intelligent leader who is intellectually elite, among the many other qualities I want in a leader.
MariosRight
Chaos,
Your argument about the Vichy not attacking the Resistance is bogus. That came about by agreement with the Germans. The Vichy govt passed on info about the resistance to the Germans but did not actively participate in order to try to keep the French citizenry passive towards the govt.
I see no reason to try to continue intelligent discussion with you as you are living in your own fantasy world.
ryokisan
Oh, Captain Chaos...the point being made about the military is the philosphy about the second ammendment. woudl the government turn on it's own people? we'd like to think not, but look at Iran. And what about hte Jews in Germany? Those German soldiers killed their own people out of fear and maybe some brainwashing. If you are so distrustful of the government, seems you would be willing to belive they would. and in the case that that were to be true, your weapons could not stand against the army's.
don't get me wrong, I believe in the right of the citizenry to have and bear arms. (not necessarily in public or in schools or g forbid in BARS!) but I do believe in our right to have weapons I just think, philosphically, we really couldn't do much against the governemnt with them. And anyone who does something against the government on a person to person level to someone who is elected by the people well in my opinion that is just cowardly. Besides...have we not learned from the Civil War? Do we really want to take up arms against EACH OTHER? I makes more sense to discuss. If you want to be left out of the bill then why not go to a town meeting and suggest some way to make that happen. Or write your representative and discuss your ideas with them. Get active politically on the next go around and support someone in your local/state/and federal races that has feelings the same as yours. but don't just make threats about how we need some blood to keep us free now and then!
roman1
Check your facts and history about the civil rights act Republicans voted in a higher percentage FOR the legislation. Democrats ran the south during slavery, jim crow, and segregation. George Wallace was a Democrat standing in the way of desegregation. The founder of the KKK was a Democrat politician. The KKK was considered to be a militant wing of the Democrat party so much so that Pres. Grant sent troops to go after them. Sen. Robert Byrd was the leader of the KKK when they were the most violent. He is a Democrat as well.
suzannewynn
CaptainChaos
You are an idiot! You are already paying you F***king dumbass!!!!
Obama is talking about saving you money but you are so wrapped up in government control it is ridiculous!
The VA is run by the government and is one of the finest Healthcare org in the world and I bet you don't have anything against them do ya??
CaptainChaos
suzannewynn:
i may be already paying, but i can refuse to pay more than i am right now.
i don't have a prob with the VA,
in my opinion, vets earned that benefit; its part of the cost associated with maintaining an army (which i am opposed to).
i do disagree with you about the quality of service they receive.
i seem to remember some big hubbub a couple of years back when some vets were silenced for speaking out about the conditions at one hospital.
and yes, i am "wrapped up in government control."
that is the only thing that matters.
"government control" is the enemy of freedom.
you are so hungry for the carrot that you don't see the stick.
AlwaysOptimistic
Captain,
You sound like one of the "black helicopter" believers....Are you really that paranoid about government? Maybe you should put some of your paranoia into worrying about the large corporations that have more control over your life than the government ever will....
bhavanibbana
Yes, the whiskey rebellion...that went well.
ryokisan
So shoudl the government decide to send in the military at some point in time (like I believe CHENEY contemplated doing in upstate NY) what armed group is going to stop them? What arms are you allowed to have and carry that is going to defeat the miltary? What ever happened to using your real voice to vote people out that you don't agree with. IF the majority of the countries votes someone into office and as a legislative group they make policy decision you disagree with....doesn't it make sense to vote them OUT of office and get people in you agree with rather than to incite takinIg up arms in the first 6 months of an adminstration?
I just don't understand how people don't think Bush/Cheney/Rumsfield were Tyrants but Obama and the democrats are in 6 months.....
ryokisan
okay so if both parties have their rights and wrongs and you just want to be left alone then you do not believe in the idea of a community? A society? You just want to do whatever you want to do. Do you believe in paying taxes at all? Are you an anarchist? So, if the bill comes down and says, you can keep your insurance if you like it or take ours but you can't go without b/c it burdens other members of society when you get sick and need care and can't pay for it, are you saying you shouldn't be expected to pay a small percentage of your income in taxes? Is that it. Well, what if you get really sick...what if you get cancer. Can you afford that all on your own? Can you guarantee that you will never rely on 'public assistance' in such a case? b/c if so, don't you feel any degree of social consiousness? or are you in favor of a smaller community based co op of some kind (all though in many areas I still do not believe that that kind of program would cover catastrophic or chronic illnesses). Just some questions i have as it has thus far been hard to understand the feelings of those who feel like you do and I would like to so that I can better understand where you are coming from.
CaptainChaos
ryokisan:
i place little value on a sence of "community." the purpose of the government, in my mind, is to ensure that others (foreign and domestic) do not encroach my freedom.
this "community" notion is why we have national debates about mandating an education policy that says dinosaurs didn't exits, or marriage laws that keep two people that love each other from marrying, or laws that require a greater punishment on killing one type of person than the rest of the population.
i do not believe the national income tax is constitutional.
look, i appreciate the consequences of my belief. if my beliefs had prevailed since 1778, the US would not be what it is today, it would far less powerful, far less wealthy. to me, that would not be such a bad thing. this country has spent far too many lives in the past 40 years to protect its financial interest. the national community strives to maintain its world-dominance at the expense of individual liberties.
the ship is far off course.
a national healtcare program requires a dependency on the government.
the government then becomes "too [important] to fail."
ryokisan
Captain,
I can understand that. I understand where you are coming from. It really bugs me that people somehow seem to thinkt hat just b/c Jefferson believed in keeping governemnt out of our lives that he somehow thought business coudl do whatever they want but that isn't true right? He'd turn in his grave if he saw the death grip corps have on our government and our society. Actually, he probably woudln't b/c it is as he believed if we let them have too much power. But what about the second part of the question...If we don't require someone to have insurance so as not to place undue burden on the rest of society then what happens when you get really sick? If you get really sick I should say. What if you get cancer and you can't pay? What is your feeling on that as someone who does not believe in having insurance and well, even if you do, it's a very good chance that your policy isn't going to cover a substantial portion. So what is your feeling on that? What do you do in that situation? And do you believe that regardless of government intervention or not that insurance-health insurance should be a 'business'. lots of people think the free market will take care of itself and everything will just be fine if we let it work but it seems insurance companies are a prime example of how that isn't true. perhaps b/c healthcare insurance should be a business. not a for profit one. What do you think of the co op idea and do you think it is viable on a large scale and with the relative 'sickness' of our country? Do you support more public health initiatives and incentives from the governemnt at all to make our populace more healthy?
Thank you.
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