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The Latest Health Care Lie
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Death panels, forced abortions—opponents of health-care reform are now claiming that it will kill women with breast cancer. The Daily Beast’s Michelle Goldberg investigates the right’s latest smear.
Perhaps it’s a sign of progress that the right’s latest line of attack against health-care reform is far subtler than the “death panel” smear. The new conservative talking point is aimed at women rather than seniors, and it has a kind of surface plausibility that may make it particularly effective. Put simply, the right is claiming that Democratic plans to reform health care will lead to more women dying from breast cancer.
This meme has been around for a while; back in June, Sean Hannity claimed that, should health-care reform succeed, “we’re going to have a government rationing body that tells women with breast cancer, ‘you’re dead.’” Now, though, there’s a systematic effort to publicize the argument. The Independent Women’s Forum, a conservative group, is spending over $2 million to broadcast a commercial in eight battleground states, including Colorado, Indiana and Nevada, in which breast-cancer survivor Tracy Walsh warns that health-care reform could kill women like her. Speaking over melancholy piano music, she says, “If you find a lump, you could wait months for treatment, and potentially life-saving drugs could be restricted. Government control of health care here could have meant that 300,000 women with breast cancer here might have died.” In a fundraising email with the subject line “More American Women Are Going to Die,” the IWF invoked “real people who might not make it if President Obama inflicts his nationalized healthcare on America.”
The effort to link health-care reform to breast cancer death is coming from the same people who’ve previously compared health care reform to the Holocaust.
The Independent Women’s Forum is closely linked to Americans for Prosperity, a major organizer of anti-Obama tea parties and town hall protests. (According to Sourcewatch.org, the two groups shared the same address and most of the same operations staff until last year). So the effort to link health-care reform to breast cancer death is coming from the same people who’ve previously compared health care reform to the Holocaust. The new tack sounds slightly more reasonable, and it’s developing legs.
A week ago, The New York Times ran a long, page-one feature about Bob Collier, a Georgia man described as one of the “calmer, more reasoned” opponents of the Democrats’ plans. At a town hall, Collier told Cong. Stanford Bishop that his wife had survived breast cancer through early detection and treatment, but he feared she could be put on a waiting list for care if Obama got his way. The Times story presents the Colliers as rational, ordinary people with “legitimate concerns” about health- care reform. It waits until after the jump from Page One to note that they are committed conservatives who “receive much of their information from Fox News, Rush Limbaugh’s radio program, and Matt Drudge’s website.”
John McCain, another conservative with a reputation for reasonableness, brought up the breast-cancer argument at a town hall last Tuesday. England, he said, has “repeatedly blocked breast cancer patients from receiving breakthrough drugs. … That's what they do there. But obviously we don't want that in this country.”
The entire argument about breast cancer and health care reform is based on a comparison of survival rates in the United States and England. There’s little question that breast cancer treatment is better in the U.S. Last summer, The Lancet Oncology Magazine published a comprehensive international comparison on cancer survival. It found that five years after being diagnosed with breast cancer, American women had an 83.7 percent chance of survival, while those in England had only a 69.8 percent chance. England, which lags behind the U.S. in screening, has a government-run health program, while the United States does not. This is being interpreted as proof that government-run health care leads to more cancer deaths. And that is a dishonest distortion.
Leave aside, for a moment, the fact that no one is proposing single-payer health care in the United States—much to the despair of many liberals. Several countries with socialized medicine have breast-cancer survival rates that are barely distinguishable from our own. According to the Lancet study, Canada’s five-year survival rate is 82.5 percent, and France’s is 79.8 percent. (Both countries also have less breast cancer overall -- indeed, for reasons no one quite understands, the United States has among the highest breast cancer incidence in the world. French women are more likely to survive colon and rectal cancers than American women, though again, the differences are quite small. Meanwhile, the Lancet study shows, one country has a higher breast-cancer survival rate than the United States—Cuba. The study’s authors point out that this could be due to faulty Cuban record keeping. But overall, there’s nothing in the study to suggest that government involvement in health care harms women.
Quite the opposite, in fact. As should be well known by now, American women have a lower life expectancy than those in England, France, Japan, Canada, and several other developed countries. Meanwhile, horror stories about the rationing of cancer care by the American insurance industry abound. In an almost grotesque irony, it turns out that Mr. Collier’s wife endured one of them. Their insurance refused to cover Ms. Collier’s radiation treatments, leaving them owing $63,000 that their hospital eventually wrote off.
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Jacob Bernstein is a senior reporter at The Daily Beast. Previously, he was a features writer at WWD and W Magazine. He has also written for New York magazine, Paper, and The Huffington Post.
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Lloyd Grove is editor at large for The Daily Beast. He is also a frequent contributor to New York magazine and was a contributing editor for Condé Nast Portfolio. He wrote a gossip column for the New York Daily News from 2003 to 2006. Prior to that, he wrote the Reliable Source column for the Washington Post, where he spent 23 years covering politics, the media, and other subjects.
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Jeff Madrick is a contributor to the New York Review of Books and a former economics columnist for the New York Times. He is editor of Challenge Magazine, visiting professor of humanities at Cooper Union, and senior fellow at the New School's Schwartz Center for Economic Policy Analysis. He is the author of Taking America, The End of Affluence (Random House) and The Case for Big Government.
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Michelle Goldberg is the author of The Means of Reproduction: Sex, Power and the Future of the World and Kingdom Coming: The Rise of Christian Nationalism. She is a senior correspondent for The American Prospect, and her work has appeared in The New Republic, The Nation, the Los Angeles Times, Glamour, and many other publications.
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Michelle Goldberg is the author of The Means of Reproduction: Sex, Power and the Future of the World and Kingdom Coming: The Rise of Christian Nationalism. She is a senior correspondent for The American Prospect, and her work has appeared in The New Republic, The Nation, the Los Angeles Times, Glamour, and many other publications.
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Michelle Goldberg is the author of The Means of Reproduction: Sex, Power and the Future of the World and Kingdom Coming: The Rise of Christian Nationalism. She is a senior correspondent for The American Prospect, and her work has appeared in The New Republic, The Nation, the Los Angeles Times, Glamour, and many other publications.
I'm very glad I live in Australia. We have public and private healthcare running in parallel. While we may not have a perfect health care system, everybody who can't afford or doesn't want to pay for private health insurance still has access to the treatment they need based in the public system based on how urgent they need it.
I follow American politics and issues quite closely, and it seems to me that the Republican party preys on the stupidity and ignorance of the red-neck classes to push forward their own agenda.
Which seems to be based around making themselves and their mates more rich.
You got it, mate.
Why do people believe this garbage? I live in Canada. I had a lump, suspected malignant. Had all relevant tests within a week. Luckily I'm good. But if I wasn't treatment would have started immediately. Literally. And with no co-pays, recission, high insurance costs or any of the other things American unreasonably endure. We're not a bunch of commies up here; but if any politician tried to lay a finger on our health care they'd be run out of town so fast their head would spin. I just don't understand how people cannot see that healthcare for everyone makes for a healthier nation with a stronger economy. (Shakes head.)
Hear Hear!
How gullible are we as a nation?
Its down right unpatriotic to spread these kinds of lies and oppose changes that will make our country stronger.
Also its against the Christian faith! The church, at least the Catholic church, is in support of most of this health care reform.
Why are all these people choosing the lies of big companies and fox news over the teachings of their church?
How gullible are we as a nation? That's rhetorical, right? Remember George Bush was president TWICE, and Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, and Glenn Beck draw an audience in the millions. We are a nation of Xenophobic drones who just want to believe these liars for no other reason that I can determine except it makes the world easier for them to cope with by having boogie men to blame everything on. I am a democrat and I don't know any other fellow democrats who fit the straw man liberal leftist America hating commie pinkos boogie men that they constantly pretend "runs" their opposition. However, I do know plenty of what I can only consider mentally unbalanced people who identify themselves as right wing conservatives. These people, especially the evangelicals, have about the worst case of cognitive disonance I have ever encountered. The sad thing is they are being manipulated by folks whose only real interest is making sure the gravy train they are riding keeps on rolling. They constantly sit in opposition to their own self interest. They are a pretty disfunctional lot, and they are irrationally angry and pissed off because things are changing, and of course its all OUR fault. So again I must conclude your question is rhetorical.
I think most evangelicals are acting in good faith... I think its just a matter of the real news about the real world and from the real experts never reaching them...
When people believe this garbage, it is almost always intentional. It suits their politcal agenda to believe and spread lies. That it is also immoral is irrrelevant to them.
Exactly!
Yes, it's definitely intentional, and it's immoral. It's a bit sick that the same right-wingers who claim Christian values as a vote-getting ploy would still have us emulate Cain as our hero--kill your brother and then evade responsibility by asking, "Am I my brother's keeper." Gasbags like Coulter and Limbaugh and all of Rupert Murdoch's Fox News and Wall Street Journal types would have us just let them suffer and die--and out of their own smug, self-anointed, self-centered greed try to convince the rest of us that we are not responsible for our miserable brethren. It gags my soul.
But if you knew you'd have to pay for the services yourself because you WEREN'T in Canada, and had no insurance, would you have run to the doctor, knowing that this would probably wipe you out financially? Probably not. You'd put it off and fret.
Or, you'd go for tests, find out it was cancer, and then be faced with knowing there was expensive life-saving treatment you couldn't pay for, and which is effectively out of your reach. Then what? You'd die. That's what's happening now.
Their whole argument is counter intuitive, and only makes perfect sense to people who don't reason effectively. Or, perhaps it's a subtle form of social genocide: Let's keep treatment out of the reach of this class of people under the guise of "saving" the rest of us. (shakes head too).
Marionetta, I don't think many people DO believe the lies.
I say they spread them because its a game they play which many in the so called "news" media like Fox pick up on, and knowingly spread. They know the truth, they just don't have to tell it. Their coverage may not tell that something is a lie, especially if they like the lie. With a wink and a nod they will cover it because it is so outrageous... sort of like Man bites Dog = ObamaCare will kill your Grandmother.
The funny thing is, if people with real power like Grassley would make real arguments instead of embracing the death panels and other garbage, they could get some of their own agenda through. As it is, the only people getting anything changed are the blue dogs. It's true that the Republican are the party of no. No ideas, no counter-proposals, no action, no truth, no integrity. In 2010, they're going to copy John McCain's horrible, ugly playbook, assuming that the same tactics that failed before will work if you believe hard enough, because nastiness and misinformation are the only tools they have left. I'm looking forward to a nice, long torpor for those bastards.
Im not too partisan but if they do go off into crazy land please everyone help out to get or keep the good guys in office.
In Oregon it looks like it will be pretty unspectacular. Wyden is an idiot when i comes to partial birth abortion but I don't see many alternatives and hes good on everything else and seems honest. Therefore I expect to be phonebanking for some other candidate from some other state... but please people don't drop the ball, if we can get/keep a real filibuster-proof majority in 2010 it will very positively effect our lives.
They've been told NOT to see. In addition to your excellent health care, you're better educated up there, too. Still, not all of us believe the gargbage and continue to vote in our own best interests.
I would make the case that the current healthcare situation is what kills people, including women with breast cancer. I was diagnosed with bc 11 years ago. I had great health insurance through my job and received magnificent care. Completely in remission. Well, that job disappeared in October 2008 and guess what -- I am UNINSURABLE. I was turned down by all insurers because of "pre-existing condition," even though their own forms only asked for the last 10 years of medical history, which have been cancer free. So if I should -- god forbid -- end up with another cancer diagnosis, what are my options? Neither bankruptcy nor death are particularly appealing. This is why we must have reform!
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You are exactly right, namedujour. My aunt had breast cancer and did not have health insurance. She knew something was wrong but put off going to the doctor because she couldn't pay for it. By the time she finally went, the cancer had spread all over her body and she died a few months later. I guess their argument is that this is better than nationalized health care? I can't begin to tell you how much this infuriates me.
I have a friend right here in New York State who had to wait more than TWO months for a breast biopsy. A surgeon with an available appointment could not be found between NYC and Albany. BTW it was indeed breast cancer, and yes-she does have insurance.
Ed, it will only get worse over time if this legislation is passed. Once you remove the financial reward of over a decade of hard work....you'll get fewed people willing to become doctors. Sounds great, feels good, but not sustainable.
Nothing in the proposed health care reform bill would diminish the pay received by physicians. Furthermore, countries with single-payer systems who pay their doctors far less money than doctors earn in the USA do not have shortages of physicians.
Ummm, the point of my comment is that people already have to wait months for cancer treatment. I guess you just have a glass half empty outlook. I would like to believe that reform would lead to better outcomes for people. Your crystal ball has clouds, mine has sunshine.
The US is ranked #37 in healthcare, although we spend twice as much as any other country. I'm sorry, Humor, but this is propagandistic claptrap. The countries ranked 1 through 36 all have some form of univeral healthcare, with none of the dire problems you're pushing.
Humor-In-Uniform: If the government would pay for medical school (this is done in some other countries), perhaps doctors could focus on helping sick patients instead of making money to pay off student loans. Then you might have more doctors, particularly GPs who aren't well paid now.
And can you really be comfortable with a doctor whose sole goal in life is to get rich? Can you trust him (or her) not to push you into treatments which are expensive but not medically effective?
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Nobody goes to med school because it will make them rich. Four year of college, four years of med school, one year intern, two or more as a resident, plus several more year for a specialty: You can make way more money faster going to Wall Street. People go into medicine because they want to help people and make a difference. This legislation help people get the treatment they need.
I have dealt with the medical education community for many years, and my own son is a medical professional. Occasionally, you get a med student who is doing it to make lots of money, but they are few and far between. The training process is just too rigorous, and that type of med student washes out.
Booknurse is right, docs are not in their profession to get rich, but they do want to make a decent living, and they deserve it. It's just that not all docs are equally competent, especially in patient communication, and that leads to charges of avarice.
I appreciate you all making good comments and not just being hateful...
Anyhow, our country has been conditioned that doctors make a decent wage. In the short term at least in a universal system, I believe the carrot to get people to go into medicine won't be there and you'll have some really good and bright people seeking career fields that pay more.
Alan, I think you sort of made my point. Not enough GPs because that's not the money specialty. Make them all that way and you'll have less people that are overworked and paid less...they won't do it for long.
Easyrider, I couldn't agree with you more about the military comment...I'm active duty and have done my fair share of fighting. However, when a GED is the minimum requirement to be recruited, it's not hard to get people that will work for that pay. It isn't much, trust me. When you have a doctor that goes through 8 years of medical school and depending on their specialty, another 3-6 years of residency to be a part of a socialized medical system? Some may do it, but not all. Some people in this country want to see the fruits of their hard work. Why should a prison guard out of high school make as much as a doctor? Check the numbers...it will be true!
Thanks again for your relatively friendly responses...
Where is your research to back up your argument? And, if it is correct, and doctors are primarily in medicine for financial gain then what is the incentive for me to support the current approach to health care? I assume your were military by your nickname, and if so, did you spend years and years being paid less than your civilian counterparts, endured months even years in assignments in some of the worst places on the planet, because of the money? Of course not. Survey after survey after survey shows that military people stay in the military because they believe they are making a difference. Maybe its just my choice, but I believe the doctors I know, and money isn't their primary consideration. And it may just be that a system that reduces or elliminates some of their overhead costs would actually net them more money in the end...
I said a decent wage, not rich. I'm sure they all want to help humanity, but they also deserve a decent living doing it. I"m saying that if you bog them down all day long...day in and day out, they will get burned out and not even money will motivate them to stay.
Humor, your comment about whether doctors would want to go through the rigors of med school only to become a part of a socialized system ignores much of the reality of the proposed legislation. It does not outlaw private medical practises and place all doctors under the control of the government.
I must admit that it does irk me a bit when people use the word 'socialist' without knowing its meaning. Socialism is an economic strategy, not a form of government. Even on a small scale, the proposed legislation is not removing the means of production ( in this case, doctors, hospitals, ambulances, and other goods used to provide health care as a service ), as would be required by a socialist system.
It is creating a new way to pay for those things by providing a public health insurance option. They are not proposing building new hospital systems for everyone, like the VA hospital system.
This new option does not have to be the only option, though it may cost more to opt-out. I would encourage you to look at the numbers before assuming the cost of keeping your current health insurance leads to an unfavorable market for private insurers. That is the false assumption that ideologues like Limbaugh want you to make.
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Humor-In-Uniform The Prison Industrial Complex is a boondoggle, with California the best unionized.
Those guys retire averaging 110,000 a year, full health benefits, double dip when the retire at 50, lot younger some of them, then work for the connections they made over time politically.
The type of people who spread these kind of lies having been doing it for so long it's doubtful most of them have a clue what the truth really is anymore. Lies have become so ingrained in their political agenda. I am like the guy earlier who said these lies fit a lot of these people's political agendas. I knew the minute Obama mentioned health care reform it was going to be a barrage of lies to keep health care from any real reform. The Republican's hate anything that helps the American people on the whole. They have been trying to destroy Social Security since it started too. Which is why I don't understand why people go against their own self interests and vote for these slugs. It makes as much sense as listening to them.
The vast majority of Americans live under the aspirational delusion that they're "middle class". The reality is that they're born working class and most will die working class.
This disconnect is most evident with Medicare - a single-payer system for the over-65 crown that has provided a comprehensive healthcare safety net for the last 40 years. Middle-class people shouldn't need a program like that, but working-class people do. Now that every American has it, virtually all will fight tooth and nail to keep it.
Social Security forces ill-disciplined workers to provide for themselves and their families in the event of old age, death and disability.
(Bush's privatization, if passed, combined with the subsequent market crash, would have destroyed the entire system and left all participants destitute.)
In the same way, Medicare needs to be extended the entire population to control the runaway costs that the under- and uninsured add to everyone's healthcare.
I think we should have the English option of adding a tier of private insurance over the baseline for those who want better care. But the English accept the fact that they have a class-based society - we do not.
Obama needs to summon the courage to drag this county out of denial and into true reform.
Anyway you slice it, whether it's the
current private insurance companies,
or the insurance companies that will
operate under government control,
there will be rationing.
Sophia, could you please elaborate? Is this something you've researched, or are you clairvoyant?
As often as I disagree with sophia5, she is absolutely right in this case.
We cannot possibly spend tens of millions of dollars on every single person in the U.S. to prolong his or her life for the last possible second.
So by definition we have rationing - whether by the lack of ability to pay, or by an insurance company's denial of a claim or lifetime cap, or by an explicit government-imposed rationing based on effectiveness of treatments and expectancy of successful outcomes.
Why are you trying to imitate Rita's style? She disagrees with you about, well, pretty much everything. Also, you don't do it very well. I don't mean that to be insulting, just the way it is.
"Rationing" is a demagogued word, and those people who are buffaloed by the right wing's propaganda haven't really thought it out.
Would you administer a $15,000 course of chemotherapy to a patient who is in a coma and will only live a few weeks? Of course not. That's rationing, at one extreme.
Would you administer the same course of chemo to a 70 year old patient who
has maybe 15 years to live? Of course you would. The problem is in the middle. Where do you draw the line?
Since most of those on the right think that somebody, mainly the government, is out to get them, they assume that this is just a way to facilitate the process. If somebody could figure out a way to allay those fears, we would change the minds of, say, two or three right wingers. Not bad, huh?
Sophia, Alan: On the other hand, if people are living healthier lives overall because they have access to healthcare, perhaps we can die of what it is that we are supposed to die of. Old age :)
The insurance companies are already rationing. I think we need to do our own rationing. I had a dear friend that died of the same type of tumor that Ted Kennedy died from a year ago. Both were terminal from the beginning, both were treated at Duke, had good insurance and probably extended their lives by 6 months for quite a bit of money. That was their right. However, my friend's last 6 months were miserable and she was ready to go. At what cost is a little time worth? If I were diagnosed with that type of brain tumor I would not have treatment. The treatment is miserable and for me would not be worth it. I think we need to begin to look a death differently as a society.
I agree totally, but I'm afraid the American public is not sophisticated enough to consider all these points and make a rational decision. And the Right isn't about to let them take the time to consider the facts.
IMO, this has to be forced through Congress, then propagandized to very simple terms to get the public to go along with it.
There is already rationing. Rich get medical service, middle class get it if they're lucky, poor get it for a few months after they have a child. Over 65 get it from the government regardless of income. Not the greatest way to allocate resources.
Or maybe more of them will be willing to go into primary care, where they're needed and where a lot of them would have gone but for the fact that it doesn't pay enough.
We need more physicians and we need the government to pay for their education so they won't have to squeeze patients to repay education loans. The current system is a legacy of the AMA guild restrictions on the number of medical schools. Obviously, this is obsolete, as we are importing doctors from 3rd world countries and even American citizens are training in Mexico or the Carribean. The AMA is on its last legs, but the legacy drags on.
Since it is illegal to shout "Fire!" in a crowded theater, and since there are legal remedies for lying about public figures, why doesn't it follow that there are repercussions for outright lies about other things? Why isn't anyone causing a little pain for people who spread lies, once they've been put on notice that what they are saying isn't true.
I understand the idea of fuzzy facts, but there are also black and white facts that fit most reasonable measures of truth. Why are so many in the news and legal communities letting the talk show hosts and other Health Industry shills and Politicians who obviously lie get away with it.
Too much timidity among Dems for my liking.
People don't become doctors and nurses to get rich. That is reserved for evangelicals.
Thank You, Jaysus!
And insurance CEO's.
When the former CEO of UnitedHealth Group, William McGuire, was fired after his company paid $1.3 billion in settlements for frauds, his "golden parachute" was $1.1 billion - the largest in the history of corporate America.
The most ridiculous thing I have ever heard and for people to believe them. Death Panes?!!!!!!!!!!! Give me a break we have that now.
"and we are not saved..."
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They can't make factual rational arguments against it, so they have to resort to sophistry.
I live in Houston.. of course I feel like I am surrounded by crazy people.. because I am surrounded by crazy people.
And they are less crazy than the secessionist folks up in Austin.
Lucky you!
we should have never joined in the first place.. except that we needed someone to pay off our debt for us.. o well..
Considering that your state gave us "W", there are many who would vote to let Tejas revert back to independence. As Molly Ivins might have said, "Don't let the door hit you where the Good Lord split you!"
I miss her reasoned voice on issues like this.
W is not from Texas.. damn carpetbaggers giving us a bad name!
The rearch-real research is out,I think the American people will vote it down.Or have their congress man vote it down,The American voter feels down trodden, and doesn't trust the Federal gov't.Yet this would create compotition, no doubtRepublicans oppose it because of fear, the insurance companies backing the Republicans, are afraid of real capitolism, and that they will be competed out. Republicans are all talk here is a chance to ignite a flame in the dwindling fire of capitolism, here in USA.Adam Smith capitolism compotiton.Government can't and won't get to involved in this with the competition comes also creativity.
It's all about the money folks. These fantastic stories are being spread to defeat reform to a system that is making a small group of people extremely wealthy, while a huge group of people are denied access to reasonable healthcare. All being propagated through a group of very dysfunctional people with extreme cognitive disonance. The biggest beneficiaries of defeating healthcare reform are going to be those who are making the most money from it now. And thank you all you evangelical "Christians" for supporting this immoral social Darwinism - that's right - as much as you irrationally hate the idea of evolution YOU ARE A BUNCH OF SOCIAL DARWINISTS - and the fittest who survive in your world are those who can "SHOW ME THE MONEY". You people make me sick, and that's not something I want to be under our present system. Can't afford the copays.
Thank you for that. I agree completely. I am glad someone else has noticed that fundamentalist Christians are social darwinists. It would be funny if it were not completely infuriating.
Stephen J. Hemsley, CEO of UnitedHealth Group, has made over $750 million in salary, bonuses, and other benefits. I doubt he is in favor of reform.
Blame it on the money, blame it on the fantastic stories, blame it on the Christians.....but, there are basically 2 reasons why the Messiah is encountering problems on his way to socializing healthcare.
1. Most people like their health insurance.
2. We're broke and they don't believe that the Federal Government can do it better and for less than the current system as fllawed as it may be.
Those are my feelings, but even if you don't share those same feelings they are essentially the motivating forces behind all of Barry's problems in this debate.
Grimm - I don't know if most people like their health insurance, but those who have it are sure glad they do cuz you are pretty screwed without it. I don't think the 50 million with no coverage can say they like theirs though. And if we are broke is because of Barry, or are you forgetting Georgy Boy and what he did for the last 8 years?
Actually, Grimmace, I blame it on people like you who lie endlessly to torpedo health care reform, without any concern for the Americans who are going to die as the result of your actions.
As for point 1: Survey: Medicare Beneficiaries Report Greater Satisfaction With Insurance, Better Access To Care Than Enrollees In Employer-Sponsored Plans
http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Content/News/News-Releases/2002/Oct/Surv ey--Medicare-Beneficiaries-Report-Greater-Satisfaction-With-Insurance--Bett er-Access-To-Care-Tha.aspx
As for point 2: France has the best health care system in the world, but pays only half as much per person as we do. I would be more than happy to cut U.S. health care costs from $2.2 trillion annually to $1.1 trillion.
I can think of a few things we could do with an extra $1.1 trillion each year.
"1. Most people like their health insurance."
-- I would agree: Most people -- WHO CAN AFFORD HEALTH INSURANCE AND WHO DO NOT HAVE SERIOUS MEDICAL CONDITIONS THAT MIGHT DISQUALIFY THEM FROM COVERAGE UNDER THE CURRENT SYSTEM -- like their health insurance. In fact, I'd say you've understated your point -- they LOVE their health insurance. They'll fight to the death for it. I would, too. Unfortunately, that leaves a large section of the country up sh*t's creek.
"2. We're broke and they don't believe that the Federal Government can do it better and for less than the current system as flawed as it may be."
-- I think the people with Medicare would disagree with you, (if they watched something other than Fox News and actually realized that THEY ALREADY HAVE government-run health care.) I also don't see how you can say "we're broke" when you obviously have health care. You're not "broke" until you have to file for bankruptcy because your medical bills were equal to twice what you make in a year. Like I just did.
Yep. Filed for bankruptcy last month. I'm 27. Fought Blue Cross for 2 years to get them to cover my hospital bills. I'll give you 3 guesses as to who won.
And!
Guess whose premiums are about to go up to help pay for that $30,000 unpaid bill? Yours are, Sucker! -- (You don't actually think the health care people just say, "Awe, shucks! Looks like we lost 30 grand." Do you?)
And guess who can't get any kind of insurance now, no matter how much I'm willing to pay a month? That would be me -- I'm 27 years old and can't even hope for health insurance until I either qualify for Medicare, or decide to be homeless and qualify for Medicaid.
The bottom line is: I want a public option, #1, for my health, obviously; but also, #2, so I can afford some basic care -- that I will gladly pay for -- so that you and the other people with health care don't have to. As it is, every time I and 50 million other people go to the hospital, you have to pay for it. One way or another, you are already paying for 50 million uninsured people. Wouldn't it be nice to see that money go to something proactive, rather than the last-minute, let's-save-him-and-put-him-out-the-door-as-soon-as-possible kind of treatment 1/6 of the U.S. population has to deal with now?
Look, the Republicans have called Obama everything but a white man. They have pulled out all the stops to block health care reform. Pretty soon they will be saying that Obama is going to sell your children to the evil aliens from the X-Files--whatever they have to do.
Right now, their only real play is to ally with the Dixiecrats to block all real change. They have done that many times in the past, and that Republican-Dixiecrat coalition is one reason the US is such a backward country compared to any other in the Western world.
Right now, there are not quite enough Dixiecrats and Republicans to block everything, but in the future there might be. Obama will never have a better chance to pass real reforms than right now, except perhaps for a year after his reelection in 2012.
Spreading lies, is of course, a product of deceitful people. If they were not lying about one thing they would be lying a bout another.
What I fail to understand are the idiots that actually believe this crap.
Just a little bit of research would show the lies but the idiots still just believe the lies.
I have wall to wall r elatives in Canada. I visit there regularly and I ha ve never heard one bad thing from them about their health care. But in the States all you hear is about the substandard care in countries that actually have the best health care in the world.
But the idiots in America always listen to lies.
My mother who lived in British Columbia until she was ninety-seven year old always said that Americans were big children.
Another thing you hear in the States is the taxes... my God! the taxes the Canadians pay !!!!! Yeah, right.
And they live in great houses, have the best schools . Most get a months vacation after being with a company for two years...
Oh, they are really so badly off. Really, really!
If you actually think that Health Care Companies in this country DONOT ration your health care... you are one of the idiots I am talking about.
What I see, sadly, is a lack of intellectual curiosity, not necessarily capacity though in many cases that is true as well, coupled with laziness driving, 'inspiring' the Fox News crowd.
Doubt that? Dear me, watch Glen Beck for five minutes or O'Reilly or Hannity take a sliver of truth and extrapolate it onto pure misinformed hype. If you'll research for five minutes, you can debunk 90% of their statements. You gotta ask whose dime is paying these people? Cognitive disonance abounds and I don't think these victims even know it.
It's usually easier to follow than to lead and too often, the louder, the more ridiculous and outlandish, the more appealing, attention grabbing it is to this intellectually unhygienic group.
I see a lot of these people living in fear of things they are not willing to investigate on their own including my dear Aunt, who is a retired elementary school educator with a master's degree on her wall!
Bellicose, emotive lying nourishes disinformation and the real culprits here are those who employ the tactic of lying and demogoging the willingly(?) ignorant.
Good luck, Mr. President and reasonable lawmakers with lots of Maloxx to you and those of us who are at least willing to dig into issues for facts, truth, fairness and equality in dealing with our health, and especially, our lack thereof.
Thank you.
Grow up... get informed.....
http://www.healthactionnow.org/?s_src=20090809_US_ADV_A_AARP
it is all very frustrating, i agree. but i think the feelings of the opponents that believe (probably not the ones that start them) these ridiculous rumors are legitimate. americans have always been distrustful of government. freedom from government was what this country was founded on. as loose and weak as the original government of this country was, many founding fathers thought it was still too powerful. a healthy distrust of government power is as american as apple pie. i dont blame them for that.
the problem is that these people dont step back and look at the grand scheme of things.
in todays world, it is the duty of governments to provide for their people. the fact that we dont have healthcare available to all of our citizens is a disgrace and an embarrassment for our supposed greatest country in the world. people are acting like this is the first time the government will intrude into their lives. the american government is in our lives arguably more than in any other country (ill not even get into the bush administrations infractions into our privacy). the programs we have now that are run by the government are often what are keeping many people alive today. we want the government out of our business because we feel the country will prosper through the work of its own citizens. the problem is that a complete laissez-faire institution is faulty, we saw what a drop in government regulations can do to our economy just last year. in more "socialized" countries in europe, there is far more upward social movement than in america. the information is out there. THEY are "living the american dream." when basic health and amenities are provided for all, more people can reach their full potential. america is drowning in its (nonexistent) ideal of freedom, and ironically losing it inch by inch. i feel like it more resembles a pack of animals fighting each other (with the big insurance companies killing us all off) than a thoughtful, intelligent, and helpful first-world government.
i dont know how to change such a large, vague problem, but until we do everything will be hard to change. america is great today because in the past we were quick to adapt sometimes radical changes when it was in the best interest of our people. the more educated people are the more people will see that the status quo can always be bettered. the people at places like Fox News and the people spouting these lies are directly preventing people from seeing this.
wow, sorry for the rant. i think it's fairly cohesive, though.
It's a fight, but the facts are on the side of reform. Fighting ignorand and stupidity with facts is the only way to win.
Even the "death panel" concept has merit. It's a fact that 80% of the healthcare costs incurred in one's live are spent in the 18 months preceding death. If Americans could wake up to the reality that the movie is going to end and they are all going to die ("No one gets out alive!"), perhaps we could have a reasoned discussion with our elders about how they would like to spend their final days.
I don't care whether you call it a "death panel" or "end-of-life counseling" or another euphemism; we need to deal with it.
spotted: Unfortunately, facts aren't enough. The lies and fears spread by conservatives may well drown out the facts that we try to promote.
AlanD2 -
How should reform be sold to the Amerian public? Does the cause need to "go negative" and provide equivalent fear-mongering based on the rampant insurance company abuses?
In my discussions, I appeal to capitalist greed: "How many potential entrepreneurs are not going into business for themselves because of the inability to get proper health insurance?" Frankly, I think the number is huge.
Apparantly one of your liberal Gods and Universal Healthcare Provacateurs, Teddy Kennedy, didn't opt for the "reasoned discussion" on how to spend his final days. Instead he chose what was undoubtably a very expensive course of treatment during his last 18 months knowing that he basically had no chance of living much longer even with this treatment. Think how much healthcare could have instead been applied to someone with far better odds and possible quality life years ahead than 'ol Teddy Boy.
Grimmace - Save your fear-mongering for someone else. The outcomes with cancer treatment are different from advanced vascular disease and Altzheimers. Besides, Teddy had his own money to pay for his care.
spotted: Another possible appeal is: "How many of you are working in jobs you hate because you have pre-existing conditions and would never be able to get health insurance if you changed jobs?"
Grimmace: Just remember that it was socialist, single-payer, government-run health care that took care of Kennedy during his final year.
So much for your conservative "government can't run health care" arguments.
It is hard to believe that any rational person would believe this crap spouted by the rethugs. If the republicans truly have concerns about reform, then lets hear some plausible reasons why it won't work. Let's hear alternative solutions or present workable legistration to conquer this problem. And a problem it is, healthcare as it stands is breaking Americans. What is it going to take for the republicans to admit that the citizens of this country are dying due to lack of healthcare? They've got to know, so why not do what they were elected to do.....help the people in their districts and the country as a whole. The GOP has turned into a cult of extremists bent on breaking this country.
A simple reform, that congress could pass tomorrow, is to give individuals the tax savings that they now give to employers for healthcare.
The 1970's government "reform" that gave businesses, but not individuals, tax breaks on insurance is directly responsible for the death of small insurers, the tying together of job and insurance (truly heinous), the inability of the poor, the young, or the healthy to purchase catastrophic-only coverage, and it forced all seniors into medicare (because they don't have job-provided coverage). One little change to the tax code resulted in dozens of unforeseen consequences.
The system is horrible, but any political plan to just have the government run everything will be worse. Look at US agriculture, it has been a nearly completely government run enterprise for decades. The federal government is agriculture's biggest customer, and they call the shots. The big ag corps use their money and political clout to drive the small farmer out of business with regulations that only big guys can afford to implement -such as NAIS. The result of this corporatist system is diabetes and heart disease and tainted peanut butter, among other ills.
The only healthy part of the whole food system is the part that is free from most government interference: the sustainable organic farmer, the local farmer's market, and the backyard gardener.
Giving individuals back the control over their own insurance needs would immediately reduce the power and profits of insurance companies and empower actual people. It would remove the employer from your private life. The democrats plan will only empower Big Insurance with job security--who else can the government turn to to administer the new "health care"?. I can see Blue Shield and Aetna and Wellpoint all fighting to get their own guys onto the new Dept. of Health Insurance (or maybe it will be the more Orwellian Dept. of Health) just like Monsanto uses the USDA, Halliburton uses the Dept of Energy, and GoldmanSachs uses Treasury.
Maybe this will explain why government health care plans work in this country. Like, Medicare, Medicaid and the Veteran's System.
In todays Houston, Chronicle, it was r eported that in 2006, William "Dollar Bill) Mc Guire, CEO of parent company United Health Group walked off with a $1.1 billion dollar golden parachute (on top of $500 million he had already raked in) - though he had to return some of it in an options backdating scandal. Just think about that amount of money and the health bills it would cover for sick people.
The Military does not have this type of stuff to contend with and there is much more money going to the patient.
Takes a hell of a lot of paid premiums to justify that kind of greed.
Now you know why they want so badly to keep the status quo.
Companies like United Health are bleeding American citizens dry.
And Americans are too stupid to even realize what is happening to them. And even if they do
realize this... they think as long as it does not affect them it really is not important.
Just wait, when your kid gets brain cancer and the insurance company immediately tells you they are canceling your health care plan.... you will get the shock of your life. And believe me, getting an eighty thousand dollar bill that you find out your insurance company will not cover.... you will be shocked.
I have a friend whose health care plan was canceled because when she filled out her application she neglected to say that she had a gall bladder attack when she was ten years younger.
The insurance company took her premiums for fifteen years before they brought that subject up.
And getting back to United Health Care.. this is the same company that eighteen months ago paid a
$400 million dollar fine in New York State for consumer fraud charges.
Check it out...be informed.... do not jeopardize your and your families future by being uninformed.
That is the interesting part..."as long as it does not affect me". What people don't realize in this debate is that is going to affect all of you sooner or later...its just a matter of time.
It seems to me (being a Canadian) that the people in the U.S. need to start thinking of their best interests when it comes to health care. The insurance companies surely are not, the politicians are not...and these are the people that will be taken care of (without incurring huge debt) when they get hurt, sick, or are dying.
I hope that you get the reform you need!
I am a breast cancer survivor and I know a lot of women who are. I KNOW that in England, women are not able to receive some of the newer, targeted treatments that ARE prolonging quality life here. I have a British friend who is SURE she would have died years ago had she not moved to America.
We need reform to increase access, decrease costs, gain portability and expand coverage. We DO NOT need THIS reform which doesn't address most of these areas. We cannot act as if the $$$ does not matter. Tort reform must be a part of the solution. This bill DOES decrease payments to hospitals and there would have to be cuts to Medicare & Medicaid. It stands to reason you can't add millions to an almost bankrupt system and NOT bankrupt it sooner. There is much misuse and fraud in the present system. Do you really think a BIGGER system would be better monitored? What is the great hurry. It is better to do it thoughtfully - really looking at consequeces, intended and the all to often devastating UNintended - than to do it quickly and poorly.
For the last four months, Republicans so adamently opposed to any reform in our broken health care system have been heard over and over again spewing statistics from a company
c alled The Levin Group.
The statistics are falsehoods and inuendos about the health care business.Out and out lies. Skewed accounting....
It has taken months of research hunting to finally find out that the Levin Group is owned and funded by United Health Care Group.
If you are interested in some outstanding research being done on the health care industry in this country, check out the Rachel Maddow Show on cable. The have the most researched news on television. Every evening at 8 PM Central. Monday thru Friday.-
Have paper and pencil ready because they will give internet sites to follow up their investigations.
You will be appalled to see what is happening in the health care industry and why the companies are spending a hundred million dollars fighting any changes.
The Lewin Group.
John McCain said last week that the health care debate would have gone better if Sen. Kenneday would have been there. Guess waht Mr. "Country First" it would have gone better if all of you elected officials would be honest. I can't believe how low this man has sunk in the last year. He is now reduced to pandering to the far right, so he can win the primary, that's why he voted against Sotomayor and is promoting these healthcare lies. Senator McCain, is it really worth it?
Funny isn't it, how all those Republicans who now say they could have compromised with Kennedy actually voted against Kennedy's reform bill earlier this year.
Yeah, and I'm sure that you voted for McCain last year -- You know, before he sunk so low.
You mean when he selected Palin as his running mate?
In your dreams, Grimmace. McCain sold his soul in 2008 (what was left of it anyway - he is a politician, after all).
He switched many of his previously-held positions in order to win the Republican nomination. He was never my favorite Republican, but after his disgraceful pandering I would rather have voted for Ron Paul (who has principles - even if they are crazy).
In your dreams, Grimmace. McCain sold his soul in 2008 (what was left of it anyway - he is a politician, after all).
He switched many of his previously-held positions in order to win the Republican nomination. He was never my favorite Republican, but after his disgraceful pandering I would rather have voted for Ron Paul (who has principles - even if they are crazy).
How could you possibly know that. You maybe one of these right wing wackos mr grimmace? You remarks certainly give that appearance.
As an RN of 30 years, and someone living with breast and neuroendocrine cancers....both stage 4, I am disgusted with those using fear to get people to advocate AGAINST their own best interest, by convincing them that having an alternative to for-profit health insurance will be a disaster.
I'm now one of the nearly 50 millions of Americans without health insurance, and unable to get any. I paid nearly $500./mo for COBRA coverage, but it ran out. My former employer had been willing to extend my coverage past 18 months, but they changed insurers 3 months later, when their Blue Cross/Shield coverage became unaffordable. Aetna, the new insurer, refused to let me enroll.
Even though I'm a certified nurse case manager, and used to "work the system" on my patients' behalf, there is nothing out there for people like me, who were in the middle class. Most help available is for people WITH health insurance, and helps with co-pays, or has income levels that are so low, that anyone who was middle class can't qualify for help.
Many people, hearing my predicament told me "Well, surely you can get treated, you just go to the hospital." No, you don't. You won't get care without pre-payment, except in the ER, where all a hospital is required to do is to
stabilize" a patient, and then release them.
Even my oncologist was unaware that, having been accepted for Social Security Disability, I wasn't automatically eligible for Medicare or Medicaid. In fact, to get my breast cancer drug from the manufactures' patient assistance program, I had to apply for Medicaid. Not only didn't I qualify, but I learned that HAD I qualified (by having no more than $2,000.00 in resources among other things) I'd have been responsible for $10,000.00 in deductibles EVERY 6 months! That would have left me with about $3,000.00 yearly on which to live.
As far as Medicare is concerned, there is a "date of disability", which is the date that one is first qualified to get SSD. There is a 5 month wait after that before you get your first payment. THEN, you start a 2 year wait to qualify for Medicare. If, like me, you still need health care in the meantime (what a concept!) you're probably out of luck, especially if, like me, you live in a "red" state. Having "pre-existing conditions", I can't get commercial health insurance, and although the state of NC has a "high risk" health insurance pool, it's completely unaffordable, and doesn't even cover ONE of the three aromatase inhibitors (breast cancer drug) that are currently one of the main treatments for estrogen positive breast cancer... the type I have.
I've read about the survival rates of breast cancer patients in the UK also, and one study that I read indicated that one of the big areas where the UK fell down was in patient education about BC. By getting very little information about their disease, the study went, women participated less in their care, and had less good outcomes. Is that 100% true? I have no idea. I don't live in the UK, and although I speak with BC patients from the UK often on a BC chat room, I don't claim, as the anti-reform folks do, that I know much about the National Health System there other than what they tell me. What they DO tell me is that they get all the care that they need, and that the long waits that Americans hear about don't exist now. They used to, but the government invested a great deal more money to improve the speed and quality of care.
What I know is that women from Poland, Portugal, Bahrain, the UK, Canada, Greece, Madeira, an island off of the coast of Africa, South Africa, and many other countries with whom I talk in our chat room are stunned and appalled by what Americans suffer with our for-profit health insurance system, and by many of us having no health insurance. Annahh, a chatter from Portugal who is a attorney recently told me "Portugal is a poor country, but we cover all of our citizens 100% with health care. America has fallen behind us in human rights." I couldn't disagree with her. If one looks behind the organizations that are fear-mongering about health care reform, you'll learn that they're financed and run by health insurers, pharmaceutical companies and the like. They're fooling people into believing that "the government" is going to kill them, kill their elderly family, force them to have abortions, and any other stupid thing that fearful, uninformed people will swallow.
If Americans are shouting down others and town hall meetings, holding picket signs against health care, and spreading fear about "government take-over" of health care, they're doing the work of those insurers who have quadrupled their profits in the last 7 or so years by raising their co-pays and deductibles, dropping them if they get ill, and raising their premiums to un-affordable levels. In other industrialized countries, it's unheard of for people to go bankrupt because of health care expenses. Now, it's the #1 cause of personal bankruptcy in the US, even among those WITH health insurance.
The bottom line is, America will have all its' citizens cared for when we acknowledge the truth, that health care is a basic human right, not something that you deserve only if you can pay for it.
clarknk you really have been through the mill and alot of your statement's i know are a fact because i have had to jump through those same hoop's And a person such as yourself when you need help the most all the help is not tere for and alot of people are not aware of any of this data until they have a problem and i wish you well in your fight for life
clarknk, you are in my thoughts and prayers. I am sorry to read of your troubles, and stories like yours motivate me even more to work for this reform!!
Every right wing troll should be forced to read your clear statements; best summation I've ever read. Thank you.
Thank you.
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