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The Catholic Church's Next Scandal
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At their latest meeting in Rome, African bishops ignored Catholicism’s greatest failing—the AIDS crisis ravaging their continent.
Last week, at the opening session of a synod of African bishops in Rome, Pope Benedict XVI condemned what he called “the virus of fundamentalism” that threatens Africa. Fundamentalists act, he said, “in the name of God, but with a logic that is opposed to divine logic; teaching and working not with love and respect for freedom, but with intolerance and violence.” It was an apt warning, conjuring images of Islamic extremists and Bible-thumping evangelicals. But there is a Catholic fundamentalism, too, that the pope failed to acknowledge, and it, alas, reinforces another virus, especially in Africa. In the past 30 years, concurrent with a tripling of church membership in Africa to almost 150 million people, the AIDS pandemic has ravaged the continent, killing millions, orphaning more than 11 million children, and infecting more than 20 million with HIV.
Unlike Protestant and Muslim fundamentalisms, which are tied to fixed readings of holy texts, Catholic fundamentalism derives from a rigid defense of papal authority and boils down to a fixation on sexual morality.
What is the Catholic Church doing about that? Sadly, very little. Unlike Protestant and Muslim fundamentalisms, which are tied to fixed readings of holy texts, Catholic fundamentalism derives from a rigid defense of papal authority and boils down to a fixation on sexual morality. That has turned the Catholic hierarchy into a raging enemy of condom use—even when it comes to preventing the spread of AIDS.
When Pope Benedict visited Africa last March, he caused a storm of rebuke by asserting that condoms “increase the problem” of HIV/AIDS. The Catholic campaign against condoms has included a bishop claiming, according to a BBC report in 2007, that some condoms from Europe are purposely infected with HIV to kill Africans. Less crackpot, but still damaging are more typical claims, including one made last week by the synod general secretary, that condoms don’t work well in tropical heat. Church leaders assert that condoms give people a false sense of security, which leads them to have more sex, thereby increasing their chances of infection. All of this ignores what has become an international scientific consensus—that prevention is the key to stemming the epidemic, and condoms properly and consistently used are an essential part of prevention. “Properly and consistently used” is the operative phrase there, of course, and that assumes widespread programs of sex education, which are also inhibited by the Catholic hierarchy’s preference for the “just say no” abstinence approach.
The Catholic leadership is trapped in a dilemma of its own making. A brief history helps understand why. More than a century ago, when the pope lost his temporal authority over the papal territories in Italy and was humiliated by becoming a “prisoner in the Vatican,” Catholics rallied to him as never before. Only then, in 1870, was he declared infallible in “matters of faith and morals.” When the pope condemned “artificial contraception” as gravely sinful in 1930 while endorsing “natural” modes of preventing conception like “rhythm,” it was widely assumed by Catholics that he was speaking infallibly. Papal authority was tied directly to the most intimate choices Catholic men and women could make.
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Lloyd Grove is editor at large for The Daily Beast. He is also a frequent contributor to New York magazine and was a contributing editor for Condé Nast Portfolio. He wrote a gossip column for the New York Daily News from 2003 to 2006. Prior to that, he wrote the Reliable Source column for the Washington Post, where he spent 23 years covering politics, the media, and other subjects.
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Jacob Bernstein is a senior reporter at The Daily Beast. Previously, he was a features writer at WWD and W Magazine. He has also written for New York magazine, Paper, and The Huffington Post.
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James Carroll's recent book is Practicing Catholic, a story of American belief. He is a columnist for the Boston Globe and Distinguished-Scholar-in-Residence at Suffolk University. His other books include An American Requiem, which won the National Book Award, House of War, winner of the PEN-Galbraith Award, and Constantine's Sword, now an acclaimed documentary.
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James Carroll's recent book is Practicing Catholic, a story of American belief. He is a columnist for the Boston Globe and Distinguished-Scholar-in-Residence at Suffolk University. His other books include An American Requiem, which won the National Book Award, House of War, winner of the PEN-Galbraith Award, and Constantine's Sword, now an acclaimed documentary.
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James Carroll's recent book is Practicing Catholic, a story of American belief. He is a columnist for the Boston Globe and Distinguished-Scholar-in-Residence at Suffolk University. His other books include An American Requiem, which won the National Book Award, House of War, winner of the PEN-Galbraith Award, and Constantine's Sword, now an acclaimed documentary.
The Catholic Church is corrupt top to bottom in all areas. It is made up of those who attend Mass but do not support the doctrine. And those who have left fleeing for their spiritual lives. It preys on the poor and uneducated int he third world. It is a worldwide joke.
I agree, and would add that they also tailor their "infallible" rules according to the marketplace. Priests in the catholic church, there, can be married to women, as the africans are sex positive, and they couldn't get africans to even be priests if they had to be celibate.
As for condom use, they apparently think that dying from AIDS is a perfect punishment for having sex. Their contempt for the hard lives of the poor, and those foolish enough to be catholic is appalling.
Imagine no religion...
Believe in a higher being and treat others as you would want to be treated. Harm no one. Those should be the "religion" people believe in. Though I was baptized a Catholic, I haven't practiced in years. I don't remember any priest I knew thinking AIDS was a perfect punishment for sex, but they move quickly away when the topic comes up. There are some good men and women who are Catholic and then there are the fakers....do their rosary and then cheat on their wives, just like evangelical ministers and bible thumpers. I just think the cardinals should have chosen a younger, American guy for the job of Pope.
Mother Teresa believed that AIDS was divine retribution for immoral sexual activity.
James Carroll hasn't come up with a new idea in years, if he's done that much w/o borrowing somebody else's beef. The Catholic Church has not survived this long by wetting its finger and sticking it in the wind to see how the winds blow, either driven by nature or the hot air emanating from men and women who harbor nothing but contempt for Catholicism. They might couch their contempt in very slick arguments, or they might just come right out and bare their fangs for everyone to see all at once. Carroll's worked hard all his life to among the former. But he's never been able to escape much of what he's written and spoken about in ways that indicate he'll never leave the gutter of the latter catagory. But in his case, the gutter's even deeper; hard as that might be to comprehend. What else can be said for this careerist sniveling SELF-HATING religious bigot in "catholic drag."
The hierarchy of the Catholic Church are hidebound men, dwelling in the 16th century.
More enlightened leadership would promote a renewed committment to the highest of Christian ideals and principles, instead of to papal authority.
But that won't happen.
And millions more will die in Africa because the Pope said it was a sin to use condoms.
Wonder what Jesus would do?
I am a Catholic. First of all to use condoms, is to say ha i can avoid pregnancy= I'm playing God to avoid conception. Second sex is between a man and a women, husband and wife, married couple anything else is adultry. Thus if the populus was monogamus there would not be problems like this today. Don't talk about the Catholic Church If you don't understand the teachings. The Church has stood for two thousand years and never has changed it's view's it has stood fast since the begining, Pope after Pope from St. Peter to Pope Benedict. You can't say that about any other church. Are we to say that casual sex is fine becouse that's the time were living in now. I think not. So are we to twist the ten commandments to suit our needs? That is why there are so many Cristian churches out there everywhere you look, so many they even convert houses into churches to preach what they want to preach. Matt. 16:18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church. Not churches, not two million denominations, but One.
First off, AIDS can be spread through many means beyond sex, so to claim that condom use would not be necessary if everyone where monogamous is incorrect. It certainly wouldn't be as necessary, but it still would be an area of concern. Secondly, justifying the patently illogical argument against the use of contraception with a perfect world scenario is absurd; condemning hundreds of millions to die simply because they shouldn't have had an adulterous relationship in the first place shows a profound lack of compassion for their situation.
Logic would imply that the use of contraceptives no more diverts the will of God than seat belts, latex gloves, medical care or saving for retirement. To imply that the will of the Almighty can only be expressed through random chance, that we should throw caution to the wind, relying only on our faith in divine providence, and that something as mundane as a piece of latex can confound the power of the Alpha and Omega, seems to imply that there are some severe limitations on the will of God. No form of contraceptive is 100% effective, so if the Lord Almighty really wants you to have children it certainly wouldn't require a miracle of biblical proportions to make it happen.
Lastly, condoning the use of contraceptives is not the same as condoning casual sex. The Catholic church can still stand in opposition to sex outside of marriage while also promoting the use of condoms within a married sexual relationship. Does the Catholic church condemn fast food just because its wide availability leads many people to eat themselves into obesity? The onus of your actions always falls on you, not on the items that may have made it more convenient for you to make poor choices.
@ Aaron the third
Great post
Sorry Aaronthethird any and all artificial contraceptives pill, shot, condoms,ect. ect. ect., except NFP natural family planing are forbiden by the Church. And yes if God wanted something to happen it very would happen. But God does not interfere directly with us. It's called free will. God loves everyone so much He does not force us to love Him, but only gives us a choice to accept Him or reject Him. If you use condoms you don't trust in His will. You want to have your cake and eat it to. So when two people commit to have sex they very well know the risk. Well we ask AIDS can be transmitted via neddles, yes and they know the risks too.
"Second sex is between a man and a women, husband and wife, married couple anything else is adultry."
You confuse adultery with fornication. Granted, adultery is always fornication, but fornication is not always adultery.
"The Church has stood for two thousand years and never has changed it's view's"
No? What about meat on Friday? Mass only in Latin?
"So are we to twist the ten commandments to suit our needs?"
Are we still talking about sex? I missed that commandment.
"a fixation on sexual morality"....this sums up the Catholic doctrine. Anti-abortion, anti-birth control, ignoring safe sex, denying pedophilia among it's clergy, not allowing clergy to marry and chaining women in forced virginity as nuns. All that is terribly wrong with Roman Catholicism. It is time for the 21st century and the RC Church to come to grips with it.
It's really difficult to be surprised anymore when the Pope (Protecting Our Pedophiles Everywhere) and the Catholic Church (or any church for that matter) lie, cheat, steal and wantonly promote the death of others for their own gain. I truly wish this story angered myself and others more, but the sad reality is that this is typical.
You want to create a healthy, peaceful world? Kill off religion, then hit the other corporations.
ya sure todd, because killing off religion and corporations was such a wonderful success when they tried it in communist russia and china.I'm not a church goer, but I think eliminating organised religion would destroy the only moral grounding that a lot of people need to be productive members of society.I would hate to live in a world with no guiding light for people who need it,however simpleminded we think it to be.
Why should the church have to promote condom use in any way.IT'S AGAINST THEIR RELIGION! Yes ,It's a tragedy so many people are dying from aids, but the church did not force them to have sex with multiple partners.The church promotes the safest lifestyle choice possible,abstinence.If you don't like that,you shouldn't be a catholic and you shouldn't blame them for your own mistakes and risky behavior.
Have you looked at conditions in the USA. reality4all?
Yes larry278 I have,and what I see is a country that despite it's flaws,which are numerous,is still better than any of the god forsaken hell-holes that you aspire for the U.S. to become.A godless society unfortunately results in the devaluation of human life.It happened in the U.S.S.R,it happened in China and ten's of millions were murdered and starved to death because of it.Why you want to be controlled by an all powerful government is beyond me seeing as how that always ends up with the power falling into the wrong hands and being abused,sometimes in ways that are cruel beyond anything the Catholic church or any corporation has ever inflicted upon the people. Don't look for the Catholic church to condone your lifestyle if you choose to live outside their teachings and don't think to lecture me about how horrible corporations are as you type a message on your corporate made keyboard, on your corporate made computer, using your corporate run internet connection, inside your home made of materials produced by corporations which ,if you have a job, is most likely paid for BY A CORPORATION!!!! The problems in this country aren't caused by religion or corporations but rather by the stupidity,greed and gullibility of a growing percentage of the American people who have no morals.But like always you lib.s try to blame someone else for your mistakes.Being a victim is your religion I reckon.
I find the Catholic perception of condom use so bizarre....surely people who speak of preserving life above all else (abortion & euthanasia) wouldn't want to condemn innocent people to suffering and death for no apparent reason, apart from consistency? They now accept that the world isn't flat right? So why can't they accept that condoms are essential in preventing the spread of the HIV/AIDS virus?
All the ancient religions restrict sex in some way. We in the Americas, take it literally, in other countries these restrictions are interpreted as guidelines and not strict rules. Yes the condom thing is dumb, we should dropping planeloads over Africa.
I'd like to see some support for the Church banning the use of condoms even when one partner is AIDS-infected and the other isn't. Nobody could be THAT narrowminded and stupid.
Could they be that stupid? Sure they could. This is a church that's paid out over 2 billion dollars to settle lawsuits brought on by sexual predators. A seventh American diocese just filed for bankruptcy to try to keep from paying out even more. Their learning curve isn't a curve. It's flat.
If your observation that most catholics "see through the old logic" and now ignore the pope, why then do you still blame for "leading" people astray? Do you really believe that the pope forces people to follow him? I think your write-up is stinkingly biased. Africa is not just about AIDS just like the Catholic Church is not just about sexual morality. The last three papal encyclicals bear this out. However, I know it is still possible to only darkness even in the midst of dazzling sunlight.
bejimy...when you tell someone they will burn in hell for all eternity then you are 'leading' people in a direction they might not otherwise go. One must wonder about people who defend the church both on the AIDS policy and the child sex problems.
The difference is that in the developed world, most of the people are educated and independent enough to be able to use reason and logic to understand the inherent flaws in many of the Catholic church's teachings on sexuality. In Africa, the population is largely undereducated, far more religiously fundamentalist, and has significantly less moral guidance outside of organized religion. This all leads to them being much more obedient to the teachings of their religions (not just the Catholic church, but also Islam and other Christian sects) which means that the Pope's stance on the immorality of condoms has much more sway in Africa than the rest of the world. That is what the author was implying by making the two opposing view points you brought up in his argument.
The Catholic church is no longer relevant in our world. For centuries, the church has been an incubator of immorality and scandal, perverse politics and scriptual hypocrisy.
In the USA, the church's hierarchy all too often involves itself in politics. If the leaders of the American Catholics continue to bridge the division of church and state, they should lose tax exempt status.
Let's take it easy, James Carroll is no impartial observer. Even a casual read of his Wikipedia page reveals that he has some "issues" with the Church.
Carroll should be especially ashamed of his hysterical last paragraph. "...Catholic leaders even forbid condom use for married couples with one infected partner." I would like to see a citation for that accusation. As if the Church forces a woman to have sex with her infected spouse... Absurd.
Condoms are not sacred or magical, sex is a primal urge and people get sloppy. The HIV/AIDS problem in Africa largely stems from prostitutes and truck drivers going "bareback." And nobody worries about the Pope's views if they're kicking it with whores.
The Catholic Church has a strict NO CONDOM policy... in EVERY situation.
http://www.reuters.com/article/homepageCrisis/idUSLH936617._CH_.2400
""The Church teaches that fidelity within heterosexual marriage, chastity and abstinence are the best ways to stop AIDS. It does not approve condoms but some Church leaders have been calling for allowing their use in rare cases between married heterosexual couples where one partner has the disease.""
Yeah, JennEm, James Carroll "is no impartial observer." In fact, he's the author of one of the best books ever on anti-Semitism within the Catholic Church and how centuries of preaching helped enable the Holocaust. The book's called Constantine's Sword and I recommend you read it before knocking James Carroll. He knows a lot more about his topics than you appear to.
God forbid that any sort of moralizing should get in the way of whores and truck drivers getting busy.
They have promoted and encouraged overpopulation in all it's horrific forms for centuries! Their birth control policies have created billions that are poverty ridden, starving, and dying from disease annually. Only to mention a little of the human suffering they have deliberately created. But, still they continue to preach about the dignity of life! If it weren't so tragic it would be laughable. These people know literally nothing about the dignity of a human life. They haven't learned a thing from all the misery and suffering they have been promoting for centuries. All they know are the same old tired platitudes that excuse their genocide of the human race. If the human race continues on like it has for centuries it will mean the destruction of the planet. There will be a human on every square inch of the planet while these people continue to preach about the dignity of life. I left the church over 20 years ago because I could no longer be a big enough hypocrite to encourage their unrealistic birth control policies that are destroying the earth. I have not regretted the move for a second.
The catholic rational for its teaching is as follows. Something is wrong with human nature at a radical or core level. There is a selfishness thats profound and unrecognized by the majority. The popular idea of sex as something primarily for self pleasure is an example. Sex was intended to be an expression of love or giving pleasure to the other not oneself. Giving in to the narcicsissicm of sexual desires only causes a further distortion of our individual human natures which affects all other aspects of how we treat others in life.
That's all good and well, but explain to me how using contraceptives makes it so sex necessarily becomes selfish? Can you not have sex without contraceptives that is selfish? Can you not have a loving, healthy sexual relationship while still wearing a condom, both to prevent a pregnancy and to prevent the spread of disease? Furthermore, what could possibly be more selfish or careless with the gift of life than wantonly creating human beings, without regard for their quality of life or the effects their life will have on the mathematically limited resources of the world we live in. I have two wonderful children and a wife who I have a completely healthy, monogamous and loving sexual relationship with, and we use contraceptives. I simply don't see the supposed ill effects that a bunch of supposedly chaste old men claim will come of my actions.
Yet the faith based initiative gives US tax revenue to the catholic church......giving money to someone who claims that condoms spread AIDS is nothing short of a crime against humanity.
Religion is a crime against humanity.
Not exaggeration.
kdj-kdj - Agreed. Battles over religion have caused more deaths than all others combined.
Throw out war and just talk about pestilence spread by the Church. Those numbers are STAGGERING.
Now combine the numbers... the Christians, led by the Catholics, are responsible for so much more death than ANY OTHER group of peoples.
Stalin looks like a peaceful person compared to the Christian churches.
You ought to be ashamed Mr. Carroll. Because I presume you've must of done enough real scholarship to moderate your comments and tone. Yet, you willfully ignore any truth you might have encountered and invoke the furies of prejudice.
So the Pope, a man of great wisdom and reflection, teaches Africa (and the world) that if they are serious about stopping Aids--not maximizing thier sexual gratification while reducing, but not eliminating their risk--that chaste abstinence is the only solution. Failure rates are, of course, inherent to the use of condoms. Isn't your position self-evidently absurd? How could the Pope advocate that people take that chance, in exchange for, what is most likely, fleeting promiscuous sexual activity? I think he loves Africa too much.
Please read the following, a more technical treatment of the issue, from an unbiased source:
http://www.firstthings.com/article/2008/03/002-aids-and-the-churches-get ting-the-story-right-27
Yes there is a small failure rate for condoms, less that 3%. The church in Africa teaches that the failure rate is 90%, and they have repeated this Lie for years.
They have led people to believe that using a condom INCREASES one's chances of getting AIDS. A terrible lie passed on as truth.
The catholic church is also against family planning, so that women give birth many times, leading to many, many starving children in Africa.
If the pope was an intelligent person, he wouldn't count on abstinence for birth control, since it DOESN't work. Most people are not capable of abstinence; even the catholic priests in Africa don't have to be abstinent.
The catholic church is one of the direct causes of world overpopulation.
There was a group in the 1960s called Zero Population Growth,
that had the goal of limiting world population to reduce death from famine.
The UN was to offer family planning and birth control. The church opposed it in the UN and around the world, successfully. Overpopulation is now the rule,
with few exceptions.
I come from a catholic family, my mother a former nun. I used to hope for a progressive pope, now I just encourage people of intelligence to leave the rotting, corrupt patriarchy that is the church.
Well, if you're a good RN, then you know that 3% is pretty much wishful thinking, and that the actual failure rate is much higher (though of course no where near 90%--probably closer to 15-25%).
1) Using a condom vs. not having sex does increase your chance of getting Aids.
2) The church isnt against family planning, it for natural family planning. It for planning your family in agreement with the way you've been created--through a better understanding of your own fertility. You can either respect your limitations or seek to destroy them through contraception.
3) The demographic trend for this coming century is, by the best estimates of those who are in the know, a gradual to sharp decline. Overpopulation is
4) Everyone is capeable of abstinece. This is the heart of your position really. Your position insults Africans and the rest of us really. Instead of recognising the dignity invested in them as moral creatures, who can excercise discretion and prudence you argue that we're no better than any other species. Also, it begs the question: If we're uncapable of abstinence then why are you so certain that we're able to to effictively use birth control?
Coming from a Catholic family doesnt give you any sort of authoratitve understanding of the church. Being an informed person of good-will may.
If, as you say, the failure rate is 3%, then if you have sexual intercourse 33 times relying on the condom to protect you, the rate is pretty much 100% unless you count on being lucky. Would you have sexual intercourse with an HIV positive person and rely on a condom? I didn't think so.
Pope Ratzinger can preach all he wants about abstinence being the only way to eliminate AIDS... and he may be right. But that is IMPOSSIBLE.
Abstinence WILL NEVER WORK with humans. NEVER. EVER. EVER.
We have been sexual creatures MUCH MUCH longer than we've been a people given to following religion. We are what we are BECAUSE of sex.
The Catholic hierarchy has for two thousand years had a problem with reality. For example: how, for the first thousand years, priests were allowed to marry and have sex... but people are human and these holy ones kept leaving power and property to their children... and the Catholic Church must ALWAYS keep those things for themselves... so now abstinence is the thing.
It's amazing that an organization founded on the belief that their god speaks directly to their leader is always changing how they operate. Leads one to believe that this god - supposedly omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent - actually cannot make up its mind.
Or maybe its just power hungry people trying to keep their power by changing to fit the times.
Fact is... the Catholic Church cares nothing about individuals. They only care about the power to influence.
Such it is with any and all religious organizations.
Hey shawn, Whatta ya got against fleeting promiscuous sexual activity and sexual gratification? And what, technically speaking, would be the difference between "chaste abstinence" and unchaste abstinence or is that self-evidently absurd? Help me out here, man. I'm a seeker after truth.
Well Rob, (since we're on a first name basis), as to your first question: I'm not sure your really prepared for, or asking for, a debate on hedonism. I guess the difference between you and I on this issue, if you're sincere, is that you think the sexual revolution made you master of your sexuality, whilst I believe that it made you (or our culture generally) it's slave. Forgetting for a moment, all those so-called "actresses" you exploit, when you consume pornography.
As to your second question: ha, well I guess it was more of a rhetorical florish more than anything, though, being the knowledgable, informed guy you are, you might understand that we Christians might deem an outwardly abstinent individual, who inwardly probes the depths of lust in fantasy no better than whore--in fact, he/she would mostly likely be far worse.
In reality, First Things is a conservative magazine; it stretches credibility to call its writings 'unbiased'. To do so undermines your argument.
Let's do away with latex gloves then as well! Obviously they are useless against the spread of disease, which is why so few medical professionals use them. Certainly, the best way to prevent the spread of sexually transmitted diseases is to be abstinent, just as the best way to avoid a car accident is to never ride in a car. But would you refuse to tell them to use a seat belt if they happen to ride in a car simply because it is safer to not ride in a car at all? That seems unnecessarily stubborn to me.
James Carroll needs an education. This article has been written by a vary disturbed man. You don't need to be a brain surgeon to see he is not qualified.
I'm a brain surgeon and so is everyone in my family and we don't have any problem with Carroll's qualifications. Besides, what do you know about brain surgeons? Are you a brain surgeon?
Having been a priest in the catholic church I think he's very qualified to write on it's teachings and beliefs.
The church is concerned about the failure rate for condoms. What's the failure rate for abstinace only? Pretty high I think. One of it's failures even became national news.
.... the other thing is, abstinence in light of an AIDS epidemic IS reasonable regardless of human nature. I have Aids. As a matter of fact it is crucial to eradicating this disease. I have not read anything here that acknowledges the efforts of the Catholic Church in its commitment to the epidemic. They have been at the front lines through out. Its easier to bash Catholics then it is to substantiate an arguments. I would like to know of what extent Mr. Carroll has aided the epidemic. This article is an insult to anyone with an interest in the fight against AIDS. Shame on you James Carroll!
The shame belongs to the Catholic Church.
Abstinence will NEVER work because humans will NEVER abstain.
Even devout Catholics cannot uniformly abstain.
The Catholic Church is about 2,000 years out of touch.
Do you believe AIDS is divine retribution for immoral behavior?
Maybe you also have AIDS dementia.
Except that the premise of the argument is based on promiscuity itself. Advocating condoms is about a stone's throw away from advocating that Banks engage in the Financial Engineering of products such as CDO's and CDS's, whose creation has destroyed the World Economy.
The false premise, or prejudice and assumption of the Secular world is "simply because we have invented something, it ought be used" without regard ever to consequence. We do this all the time in Nuclear Proliferation, in Moral Wars in places like the Middle East, even Vietnam, where we had no business being there other than "we thought it might be a good idea as a 'containment policy' against Communism". What a fraud that turned out to be.
And then there are conclusions to consider. Have the invention of condoms increased or decreased sexual promiscuity WORLDWIDE? Or, has it created collaterol damage such as the Bible describes, as a result of the curruption of People. Never does this thought ever enter the Secular Head, but sadly results in MARRIED WOMEN in America getting abortions in order to coverup illicit affairs with local Police Officers. What a charming world you have in mind to design.
As for me, I'll stick with the Pope and hope that the rest of you not encounter yet another deadly pestilence, from God knows where, or simply from the ether of life or evolution as you so often like to claim. We are evolving as a world into a sicker and deadlier stock and stew....you needn't look any further than Wall St. to see the proof of it all.
Perhaps we should be advising that Broker Recommendations be sealed in condoms too, such that their infection should not taint World Economies and Markets everywhere.
So not using condoms will prevent a worldwide pestilence?
Good reasoning.
===========
...results in MARRIED WOMEN in America getting abortions in order to coverup illicit affairs with local Police Officers.
===========
LOL! A hearty Sunday laugh!
Thanks...
Please post more of your thoughts on Catholicism.
When AIDS first hit and the bodies were piling up in the streets the Catholic Church turned itself inside out hiding the corpses of its gay priests.
The church is a death cult.
Hey... that last sentence... you stole my catch phrase!
Well, it is funny, especially when considering the great lengths Governments have gone to in promoting Nuclear Non-Proliferation Agreements, even to the extent of going to war, when it appears in fact that the issue most relevant to mankind would be a Penis Non-Proliferation Agreement, the result of which without has already consumed to death Millions upon Million of human lives. It is quite entertaining, actually, for Non-participating Catholics to look upon your plight and ask "then why not quit". We might say the same to an Alcoholic, which might make for some explanation of the reclamation of millions upon millions of those lives...through abstinence to alcohol.
It is your sin that you love and will defend, it seems...unto death itself. How rational is that exactly?
Sin is in the eye of the beholder... the definition of which changes over time.
It used to not be a sin for the Pope and priests to marry and have children. It used to not be a sin to execute heathens.
The Catholic Church is a moral sin in the opinion of this beholder.
Actually, it doesn't. It is the same old sin, six thousands years old, at least, according to Bible records. It is pride, anger, gluttony, greed, lust, envy, jealousy and sloth. Imagine that? A six-thousand year old warning and still mankind can't get it right? How smart is that exactly?
And to think all those years that people took the idea of God saying 'let there be light' on Faith, only to find science again agreeing that the origin of the Universe occurred in a 'light' event known as The Big Bang Theory, a single instance in time, just as described in Genesis. It is not that Science is so slow, it is why is Religion always there first pointing to the direct cause of things, seemingly without any evidence at all except Faith itself...and a tad different insight and perspective into life itself?
Mother Teresa didn't need a condom. Not with that face.
She was an old woman when you saw those pictures. Did you ever see any pictures of her as a younger woman? A knockout...absolute knockout.
To exercise character and restraint is a noble cause, the blessings of which flow into all aspects of your life, including BANKING. As everyone knows, "sex always gets in the way of the friendship." Why is that exactly? Is it because you can no longer be trusted? What a predictably bad outcome... that should have been known, in advance.
How smart is it, really, to choose a predictably bad outcome, in advance? You see, you love your sin so much, that your regard for other people is far down the list of considerations.
The problem is that you believe the false facts that the church promotes. The fact that people should repress their natural desires for sex. That "god" made us sexual beings, so we could deny ourselves and create more stress, guilt and punishment, in a world that is already full of pain and suffering. Teaching abstinence is only teaching sin, guilt and failure,
and results in overpopulation, AIDS, hunger and poverty.
When I see "six thousand years", I hear a biblical literalist, someone who thinks the bible is from "god", and not bronze-age goat herders with no scientific knowledge.
Why don't you read "the God Delusion", by Dawkins? It's an intelligent book. It's only fair, most of us have read the bible, forced to as kids.
Really, you might learn something !
I didn't think Catholics believed in such a literal translation. They even came out recently and said that extraterrestrials aren't out of the question.
@ GinaRN
I think the point is that these same things recur. Why? What is the pattern? What does even Astrology tells us of present times? It is bizarre to be sure, but few disagree about the strained 'nature' of today's conditions being felt in Society. It is very different place, now, than what previous generations in America thought would work best. And that is the issue....what works best. It is likely also the reason we are having an Economic Crisis. There is a breakdown in trust and faith...and it seems far reaching. Why would the Church be excluded from the same attacks?
@ kdj-kdj
Catholics could come out in favor of Mickey Mouse too and it still wouldn't relate to Faith or Morals. The issues of The Church relate to Faith and Morals, not what's on TV. Though that might be interesting to talk about at times. But it bears no relation to the teaching of the Faith. It is like commenting on the weather.
It's your concept of "sin" that I object to. You act as if everyone accepts the concept of sin as you understand it. And that everyone believes in the same "god". We don't. I completely reject your cosmologey, rules and practices
My life has a good outcome without your concepts of, sin, guilt, "god" and the authority of religious men. I find it arrogant and offensive that religious people naturally assume they are moral teachers and leaders, despite their stained record of sex crimes, homophobia, and racism.
I don't think there will ever be real peace unless we can break the bonds of religion; the addiction to the delusion that there is a god, and "we" do "his" will.
@ GinaRN
Sorry, not a single mention of guilt, Cosmology (are we having a face lift?), or the authority of religious men; as I'm afraid none of those ideas are in anything I have been writing about or in the Catholic Church itself...including Cosmology. I do rather enjoy hearing non-Catholics like yourself telling us what the Catholic Church is all about, having never passed through it's doors yourself.
Either you simply do not understand that they don't exist in Catholicism, or you are confused by the definition of sin I provided and which comes from Alcoholics Anonymous and the Holy Bible, not the Catholic Church. The definitions are hardly distinquishable...and both work for those who actually attend. But life does take work, and showing up is so hard for so many people.
I was raised catholic with a mother who was an ex-nun. I wanted to be a nun, but was talked out of it by my mother, and became a nurse. I took all the sacraments, and was confirmed in the faith. It was the ceremony of confirmation that first disillusioned me about the church, The knights of columbus escorting the bishop were drunk. The bishop was a folksy old
hack giving a canned speech about how "life is like a race.."Followed by guilt-tripping our parents into contributing more money.
The ritual slap was with rancid olive oil. It was over quickly and had a lasting feel of a disappointing farce.
I left the church. I think it's corrupt and hurts the people it pretends to care about. I think it's teachings are rooted in superstition and pre-science thinking, and are propaganda to make the faithful obey and fund the church.
Pope Paul, the tall thin Pope from the sixties into the early seventies was gay.
In 1968l, the joke in all the Italian Universities was that, (translated from the Italian) "Pope Paul's a faggot / He blew his way to the top."
The legacy of that pope was all of the half gay child molesters looked at him and knew he was gay, and decided they could / (should) join the church.
We all know what happened next.
The pope everyone loved, the Polish Pope owed his Bishophood, etc to Pope Paul who promoted him in Krakaw. So they elected him Pope. Though loved world wide, he was the worst possible pope.
He protected the "legacy" of Paul because Paul had promoted him! The gay priest issue was off the table!!!
This Pope is too old to appreciate priests should be allowed to marry. The church is dying. It is a moribund institution but don't say that to Pat Buchanon.
michaelelevinson.com
I'm sorry, but your use of the term "gay child molesters" is vintage 1965. The two predilections are not related.
I know that both gays and child sexual abusers are in the church--it's just that there is no data that I know of that connects the two. And although I think Paul was a caretaker pope at best, his being "gay" was never considered common knowledge, and even if he was gay, I think it's a stretch to believe that "gay child molesters would enter the priesthood because of him.
The RC church has enough problems without you fostering more scurrilous statements about it.
The Church actually recruited gays for the priesthood back in the sixties and seventies. The plague of child molestation that followed occurred predominantly among graduates of those seminaries that performed this little social experiment. The church does not currently recruit gay priests for that reason.
It's just the usual here. The utter stupidity of equating the real scandal of sex-crime clergy with the Roman Church's position on abstinence and birth control.
Disagree with the position if you will, but it is not a" scandal." And the Catholic position is not confined to the Pope's position, no matter how much Mr. Carroll wishes it were so.
The comments on this issue are particularly inflamed, as if some holy cow were threatened. Can anyone ever dare to suggest that sexual activity should be curbed at all, or at least focused in some traditional design? Is this so frightening?
Why all the hetero-phobia? Pope-ophobia? Are the historic gains won by the anti-traditionalist movements so frail that you must stoop to the rhetoric of repetition, with the caps button nailed down to the keyboard?
Ah well. Time was when logic and courtesy might prevail, but those days are gone. You got rid of the Church's voice: now you have a Cross-less public square. Enjoy this brave new world.
It will be no brave new world until religion releases its hold on those ignorant enough to follow one.
But power is rarely relinquished without force. So be it.
Really? A threat? On an online message board? Becuase an eminently holy man, dared to suggest fidelity in marriage?
Here, here, Janotec.
Huh?
What "hold" does "religion" have? People leave in droves and come in droves.
And do you really want to throw around the word "force"? I thought, from your earlier comments, that you were opposed to force in the context of religion.
Or perhaps I mistake you. Perhaps you are only against force as used by religion in the Crusades and the Inquisition. Perhaps you are in favor of forced used against it. Maybe that is the "relinquishment" you would like to see.
Richard Dawkins suggests that parents who enlist their children in religious instruction should be considered abusive. Perhaps this sort of bureaucratic intervention is what you have in mind.
I made a blunt statement that power is rarely relinquished without force. That is the truth. I wasn't calling for it... just making a clear and concise statement.
The Catholic Church will never relinquish its power willingly. EVER. As I've said before, that Church could take its wealth and feed every hungry person in the world MANY times over. But they would never do that. They dangle their wealth, their ancient prominence, in front of the hungry and tell them, "EAT UP! But listen to what our God has to say while you are... there's more food where that came from, all you have to do is let us sprinkle this water over your head..."
They are a sick group.
If the fictitious character Jesus character were to ever magically appear, he would want slain all those connected with the Catholic Church hierarchy. But thinking that is like postulating Super Man coming to life. They both are as equally possible.
10% of all of its adherents wealth... for TWO THOUSAND YEARS. They are the richest organization in the world... not many (if any) COUNTRIES hold what it has hoarded. But the cancer connected with it is eating it from the inside out... and I couldn't be happier... if only in respect of the ghosts of millions upon millions connected with its massacres.
"Millions upon millions." Hmmm. That interesting total can't be supported by even the most agreeable (i.e., to your position) anti-church historians. I imagine that you are figuring the usual exaggerations of the Inquisition and the Crusades, and of the missionary work in Europe, the Americas and Africa. I would argue with the exaggerations, but for you I will stipulate the finding.
But I hope you do not mean the so-called religious wars of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. These were wars that were waged in the interest of establishing the secular state.
And I think you probably forget, perhaps accidentally (because thinking irascible thoughts about the Church and the "fictitious character" who instituted the Church makes one forget a lot about history), the embarrassing statistics of the twentieth century. Those wars were fought by secular powers for secular things and secular dreams and ideals.
What about those "millions upon millions" (at least, at the very least, 20 million in 10 years)? There are secular powers standing today on those piles of dead bodies and sacked bank accounts who have not 10% of adherent wealth, but 90%.
Your anger is misplaced and trapped in cliche. Wake up. You're being fooled.
I said the millions upon millions CONNECTED with their massacres. Throwing out religious wars, I believe the tens of millions of dead native South, Central, and North Americans would concur with my position.
And lets throw Africa into that mix... preyed upon by the Church for a thousand plus years.
AIDS victims? Told that condoms only make AIDS worse?
And telling all adherents that no matter their economic, societal, or familial conditions, birth control is NEVER under ANY circumstance warranted.
The Catholic Church is a sham. It is Versace and Prada draped leaders saying that God wants these things... that they speak for it. That the meek shall inherit the Earth while being the antithesis of meekness.
Religion... not belief... RELIGION is the heaviest anchor around humanity's neck. Religion is all about power... it is political institutions saying they know what's best politic.
Anchors aweigh...
And what then? Are we supposed to believe that if we let go of relgion, that there will be peace on earth? People to often make the mistake of blaming everything on the religion and not the sins of man. This idea of "blame relgion" is entirely too dismissive and does not give man the credit he deserves for causing so much pain in this world. Had everyone truly followed the teachings of Jesus Christ, this would be a much better world.
kdj - Most of the millions of Native Americans were victims of diseases. They would have died regardless of what Europeans arrived. As for the role of the church, it condemned slavery, sent missionaries to provide education and health services to the natives and teach them modern agriculture. It even set up its own state in Paraguay that resisted slavers by force. Your history is not realistic.
Have you read the comments you are reviling against, Janotec? Have you taken a second to actually look at what you are critiquing? You have come here with a preconceived opinion of your detractors, as few of the people who are denouncing the Catholic church's stance are typing with the caps lock on, or saying that sexual activity should not be curbed. Rather, if you actually read this comment section, I think you'd find that most people are simply disillusioned with a church that is deaf to cries for a reasoned approach to sexuality in an age of medical science, that is blind to the pain their teachings create in the poorest corners of the earth and is mute to speak what they have to certainly understand to be the truth because they are afraid that reversing their stance on such an issue would undermine their supposed infallibility. What I see is a group of proud old men who are terrified to expose themselves for the imperfect human beings they are because it would threaten the failing power they have left in the world. For myself, I am enraged and saddened as a man who was raised in a devoutly Catholic household to see an institution that has the power to do so much good in the world instead use their sway to protect their immense pride and arrogance.
The Catholic Church prohibits sex before marriage, opposes abortion for any reason & limits birth control to rythym. The end result is a lot of practicing & non-practicing Catholics walking around with a lot of guilt. Guilt imposed by the male hierarchy of the Church.
Husbands & wives who have more children then they can afford are forbidden to practice any form of birth control not condoned by the Church. If the rythym method has proven a failure, they are told to refrain from sex & live as brother & sister. Now there's an invitation for either party to cheat on their spouse.
Divorce is forbidden, but if you have enough money & a willing priest, you can obtain a Catholic divorce a/k/a annulment.
Homosexuality is a sin, in the eyes of the Church, yet homosexual priests were ordained & the Church opened the door to pedophiles. Did they kick them out? No, they just moved them from parish to parish where they were allowed to prey on innocent children.
The biggest problem with the Catholic Church is the fact it is run by men. Men who didn't feel the Commanments from God were sufficient, so they created their own Commandments that their flock must follow.
The Pope tells wealthy nations to share their wealth with the poor. This from a man who prefers ermine trim & Prada shoes. Somewhere along the line the Church forgot the teachings of Jesus Christ.
The Protestant denominations have also distorted the teachings of Jesus Christ. Philandering ministers, homosexual ministers, blaphemous ministers & pedophile ministers have brought disgrace upon themselves & their churches.
So what's the answer? Follow the ten commandments daily, live your life as Jesus preached you should & pray to God on a daily basis. You don't need a "middle man" to help you do that.
I was about to agree with you, jojo, until I saw you said that "homosexual ministers" have brought disgace upon themselves and their churches.
Do you really believe that?
That people of faith cannot be homosexual?
Really?
I mean, I don't really care to ever join a church, being atheist.
But if you really mean your bigoted words, it's more proof for me to persuade gay people that most people of faith are homophobic.
What commandments did these men add? Homosexual acts, not homosexuality is a sin, as well as aborition, divorce,(in which Jesus himself was opposed to) and contraception are all sins. These men did not simply make anything up. This is all in the bible.
As far as the Priest Pedophillia, it was believed by many in the medical community that pedophillia was something that could be cured. Priests where sent to get help for this and where sent back saying they where cured. They did the same thing with teachers which are 100 times more likely to rape little boys than priests.
What a bunch of rubbish. So many hateful people. Kdj, your anger makes you sound like a nut. You don't know or care anything about Catholicism.
Dear Shawn Zilla,
Hey man, you caught me! I was just having some fun back there. No seeker of truth would mistake you for a "source." Oddly, you don't seem to realize that. BTW, did you hear a seventh American diocese has filed for bankruptcy to keep from having to pay damages to victims of sexual abuse? How about that! The Church you love to defend has paid out over $2 billion in damages so far and the cases just keep rolling in. Thought I'd mention it in case you don't see it in your next copy of First Things.
Keep your zipper up.
Rob
You should try tallying up the damages inflicted by practitioners of other helping professions: psychiatrists, psychologists, educators, lawyers, social workers, etc.
This study will never be done because the statistics would be embarrassing, and would run contrary to the zipper-free "cult" (or "religion," I can tell which. Maybe you, Rob, can, since you seem to be a fervent believer).
Just a little exercise in reason on the condom issue. A gathering of social workers was attending a lecture on AIDs. The lecturer began with a question-- how many here think condoms are an effective guard against AIDs? Nearly everybody raised their hand. Then he asked how many people would have sexual intercourse with an HIV positive person using a condom for protection. Everybody lowered their hands.
We talk about how condoms help prevent AIDs. Condoms fail and they fail often. Viruses can pass through them pretty well even when they work. They give a false sense of security. Would you have sexual intercourse with an HIV positive person and rely on a condom? Not if you had half a brain in your head.
Thank you.
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