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Obama, the Un-decider
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The president’s approach to the Khalid Sheikh Mohammed New York trial offers something for everyone—and decisions on nothing. Obama may be the anti-Bush, Lee Siegel argues—but he’s failing to govern.
Lord Acton once wrote that in a political system’s success lie the seeds of its eventual decline. Lately, it seems that President Obama’s grandiose image of himself as a paragon of democratic virtue is hastening the process of democratic decay.
The Obama administration’s approach to the 9/11 trials is emblematic of what you might call Obama’s egalitarian faux-democracy, in which the illusion of responding to every side in a debate undercuts the democratic process of actually arriving at a decision.
Call it the American Idol style of governing—except that no possibility ever gets voted out of the competition.
Consider the way Obama is handling the trials. First, you have the president and Attorney General Eric Holder wanting to try Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and four other men in a federal court in New York City. Then you have their stated policy of trying other accused terrorists before a military tribunal. Finally, there is Obama’s declared intention to hold some prisoners in detention indefinitely, without trial or tribunal.
Something for everyone, in other words. Mohammed’s trial in New York will please Obama’s base, those apostles of non-compromise who lay into every instance of political realism with the passion of undergraduates arguing about the death penalty into the dormitory dawn. They believe that a civilian trial will prove America’s open, democratic nature to the Islamic world—though the militant elements of the Islamic world despise America precisely because of its open, democratic nature.
Military tribunals for other defendants will pacify conservatives and liberals who feel that a civilian trial will grant foreign-born enemies the procedural rights of an American citizen; they will satisfy those who worry that technicalities might well result in an acquittal, along with those who decry the absurdity of Obama calling for a civilian trial and virtually assuring the public that it will end in a conviction. And they will appease the people who fear a civilian trial’s revelations of torture and state secrets. Indefinite detention will appeal to everyone else.
This illusion of national participation in his decision-making process, with the promise of a happy ending that excludes no one, has been Obama’s method almost from Day One. Call it the American Idol style of governing—except that no possibility ever gets voted out of the competition.
No one must feel marginalized by a tyrannical majority. Obama allows the responses of the public, and the political establishment, and the media to break down every issue into a million parts, so that the multi-faceted clamor outside his head ends up looking a lot like the multi-faceted way he considers the world from inside his head. And by the time a decision comes—and yet it seems that Obama has not come to a single consequential decision since his inauguration—some people will feel unsatisfied, but no one will feel defeated.
On the economy, there was Obama’s decaration of an ideal solution. Then came the results: The unemployed got a few sops, the homeowners got a few more, and the bankers got nearly everything. But everyone felt enough responded to that, with the exception of the hard-line Obama-haters, anger against Obama remains unfocused.
On health care, once again, Obama proclaimed his desire for an ideal solution, held himself aloof from the fray, and let the public, the media, and the politicians turn it into a World Wrestling match that made almost any sort of compromise a victory. On Afghanistan, the same process: The president might deplore the leaks that came from inside and outside his administration, but they dripped slowly, and from widely scattered places, just like the slowly dripping, all-inclusive way he appears to think.
Obama seems not so much to govern as to preside. And yet for all the prudent pragmatism of his style, he doesn’t seem merely to want to please everyone. He seems determined not to be held responsible for the displeasure he causes. In the end, Obama won’t be blamed for what will likely be the health-care bill’s substantial flaws. Instead, the transparency of the process leading up to the bill ensures that at every point where the bill seems to fail one constituency or another, a particular person or people will be blamed for thwarting Obama.
How Rich People Smoke Pot
Paul Schrodt is a writer living in New York City. He has contributed to New York magazine, Radar, and Esquire.com.
Stars Celebrate the Super Bowl
The Daily Beast is dedicated to news and commentary, culture, and entertainment. We carefully curate the web’s most essential stories and bring you original must-reads from our talented contributors.
Obama's Sham Bipartisan Show
Lee Siegel is The Daily Beast's senior columnist. He publishes widely on culture and politics and is the author of three books: Falling Upwards: Essays in Defense of the Imagination; Not Remotely Controlled: Notes on Television; and, most recently, Against the Machine: How the Web Is Reshaping Culture And Commerce—And Why It Matters. In 2002, he received a National Magazine Award for reviews and criticism.
The Betrayed Wives Club
Lee Siegel is The Daily Beast's senior columnist. He publishes widely on culture and politics and is the author of three books: Falling Upwards: Essays in Defense of the Imagination; Not Remotely Controlled: Notes on Television; and, most recently, Against the Machine: How the Web Is Reshaping Culture And Commerce—And Why It Matters. In 2002, he received a National Magazine Award for reviews and criticism.
Obama's Desperate Gay Pander
Lee Siegel is The Daily Beast's senior columnist. He publishes widely on culture and politics and is the author of three books: Falling Upwards: Essays in Defense of the Imagination; Not Remotely Controlled: Notes on Television; and, most recently, Against the Machine: How the Web Is Reshaping Culture And Commerce—And Why It Matters. In 2002, he received a National Magazine Award for reviews and criticism.
crymeariver
Bush had over SEVEN YEARS to put these people on trial and find justice for the victims of 9/11. But he didn't. He dragged his foot long enough to pass the buck. Why? Because his administration had compromised the prosecution of these people by their illegal methods. Our country has been waging war since the beginning and managing to deal with BOTH POWs and enemy combatants in a COMPETENT and legal fashion. Until the Bush torture team took over and screwed up everything.
Attorney Holder and President Obama are trying their best to fix a problem they did not create. You can't say that people held in GITMO are NOT POW's and then claim they should undergo military tribunals. They are either POWs worthy of the Geneva conventions or they are thugs that should get a civilian trial. The Bush administration decided that these people are neither so NONE of the two can apply to them. Pure incompetence.
So Attorney General Holder has no choice but to make some type of logic out of a screwed up situation. Treat the people that attacked innocent civilians as the murderous thugs that they are and avoid glorifying them as legitimate POWs or "WARRIORS" of some cause. They are nothing but little cowards who attacked unarmed civilians and they need to lowered in status and be taken to a civilian court where CIVILIANS sit on the jury.
The terrorists that attacked the military should receive justice from the group they attacked: the military.
Bottom line is that when you walk into a mess, it is not ideal but you deal with it as best as you can. That is what Mr. Holder has done. For those people who wanted different, perhaps you should call KING GEORGE in his retirement home and ask why he did nothing for over 7 years!
bcaldwell
What will the trials prove???? Are the American people going to hear the rationale for the attacks? Are we going to find the source of their hate? Will we get it out of Khaled Sheikh Mohammed that he was behind 9/11. The answer to all of the above is yes and ......... we've already heard it from them, they're not shy about expressing it, they're damned proud of it. But, I suspect that Holder already knows this which of course begs the question why?
This trial or attempt at a trial is not some altruistic, idealistic attempt to get justice for the 9/11 families. The fact that we have him and have him locked away in Gitmo is the closest they are going to get. What are we going to have, a trial with a conviction and then a dog and pony show at the sentencing as the families take the stand an call KSM all manner of names(which he deserves) and show him their hurt? Sorry but this bastard is immune to all of that- he does not care. What's more, most of the Islamic world does not really care either. We effete Westerners with our highly evolved notions of justice seem to be the only ones who care. Why? I don't know. KSM is human debris captured in a war setting. He's the worst kind of war criminal.
This trial thing is not out of some sense of moral rectitude or outrage for that matter. it's not even about KSM or bin al Shib. it's about Bush, it's about Cheney and it's about Donald Rumsfeld(who had nothing to do with KSM). Yeah , those guys offended your idealistic sense of what you think should happen in America. Yes, we must be fair, we must treat these men as gentlemen and afford them the rights we afford to our citizens. But, while you expect to exact your pound of flesh from W and Big Time and you sit smuggly whilst you try to humiliate him, understand that the guy at the plant in Jackson, MO or the farmer outside Lincoln, Nebraska or the materials handler at a warehouse in Memphis could not care less about whether or not KSM had the shit scared out of him under a running faucet. What they'd like for him is to see him running down a hall in flames and then jumping out of a window to his death....much the same way many at WTC did. Whatever this trial's about, it's not about justice for KSM or the 9/11 families. it's about Obama and Holder and their utter contempt for George W. Bush who had the balls to do the things that HAD to be done.
Monk66
Part of the glory of this country is our Bill of Rights.
These rights are extended to human beings.
The Fifth Amendment states:
No person shall be held to answer for any capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
I know it says "except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger," however, when Bush and Dickhead came out saying that because they weren't a part of any nation, they aren't considered protected by the Geneva Convention, that only leave them as civilians. Civilians are tried by a Grand Jury. Case Closed, er open in this case.
bcaldwell
Save me your worship of the Constitution on this. This guy was captured by the Pakistanis and then handed over to the CIA. if he was handed over to the FBI, then I would suggest you have a point. I don't mind him going to trial, I think its a waste of money and I think its not about closing the book on this guy. Holder and Obama could not give a shit about this guy and his rights nor do they give a shit about the constitution or anything else as high minded as that. It's political humiliation and they are using the back door because no one in their right mind would let them use the front door of hearings into old policy and enhanced interrogation- Holder may not like what he finds about his old boss. Those techniques are not new and the Bush CIA is not the first...and probably will not be the last to use them. They are ineffective in a lot of cases, but if you find a real pussy, it most definitely works.
This is about torture investigation. KSM is but a vehicle.
plumpynut
bcaldwell you just made the case for the trial. When "Justice", American or otherwise, consists of setting someone on fire and watching them run and jump to their death then we can write the post mortem for human civilization.
Monk66
you want me to withhold using the Bill of Rights as evidence because it is undeniable. This just proves you know you're wrong.
I feel the same way you do about what these people deserve. They deserve to die. However, without due process, we are only as bad as they are. We are only as uncivilized. We are no better than them stoning women to death.
And why do we have to protect Cheney/Bush? If they knowingly ordered soldiers to put the prisoners through torture, they deserve to be punished as well.
ImNoPUNK
Ok "crymeariver"...
Your name may be a great song by Julie London... but your opinion here is way off base.....
Firstly, your supposition President Bush had an entire 7 year period to put illegal combatants on trial in military tribunals is false.... so let's just get that outta the way right now.
Also any assumption on your part, the former administration did not exhaust all means available in obtaining legal guidance is erroneous and clearly a misrepresentation of documented case facts.
Time and time again the Bush administration did display a high level of competence while at the same time defending its actions against countless legal assaults by the ACLU and others.
On December 30, 2005 the Congress of the United States gave Bush all the authority he needed when they enacted the Detainee Treatment Act(DTA)....The DTA provides: " No court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider an application for a writ of habeas corpus filed by or on behalf of an alien detained by the Department of Defense at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba."
I want to point out again we've only covered up to the end of 2005.... When January 1, 2006 kicks in, all hell breaks loose cause its now an election year. The lamentation on Capitol Hill for the "poor unfortunate detainees" could be heard even in the 3rd floor janitor's closet...... The litigants from both sides of the aisle are filling up federal court rooms around the country.....Now comes June 2006 and SCOTUS rules Bush can't place detainees on trial.... but the court did declare it was not questioning the government's power to hold Salim Ahmed Hamdan "for the duration of active hostilities" to prevent harm to innocent civilians . The Justices go on to rule, "Nothing prevents the President from returning to Congress to seek the authority he believes necessary."
Though SCOTUS had ignored the recent law passed in 2005, by the time October 2006 arrives, the Congress passes the "Military Commissions Act" which was upheld in appellate court back in February 2007. At which time the court ruled 2-1, Guantanamo detainees don't have the right to challenge their imprisonment in federal courts, where by affirming the constitutionality of the aforementioned passed law.
Judge Randolph writes, "Precedent in this court and the Supreme Court holds that the Constitution does not confer rights on aliens without property or presence within the United States." He cited as the "controlling case" the Supreme Court's "Johnson v. Eisentrager" decision, the 1950 ruling rejecting the proposition that aliens are entitled to Fifth Amendment rights outside of the U.S..... I'm telling you , the ruling in it's wording is undeniably irrefutable ..... The court goes on to say, "without out a doubt it is prudent to deny enemy combatants constitutional rights and privileges." They furthur state,"to do other wise could require the American Judiciary to assure them all the freedoms of the 1st Ammendment, the right to bear arms in the 2nd as well as rights and protections under the Fourth, Fifth and Sixth, so on and so forth, etc.. etc... etc,,,,,"
Like I said in the paragraph above, 2007 is the dateline being discussed now... The country is a blaze with election fever again. This time the Left is beating the war drums even louder and the Right is telling Bush don't make any waves. Harry Reid is spreading falsehoods by saying we're losing the war, while at the same time the surge is about to be implemented in Iraq. Starting detainee trials at that particular time may have emboldened our enemies here and overseas..... No matter where the trials wer held, shit woud hit the fan.... you can't push a river , so try as he may, at this point Bush was never gonna get a conviction on any of those animals in Guantanamo. ... I will never believe the man wanted to leave them for his predecessor.
I don't disagree with your colorful discription of the detainees...nor, like yourself, do I wish them a long life.... If it was up to me I'd leave them in their cages and walk away from Gitmo... They're not worth crying over...not one more tear should be shed due to them.... The sooner they're off the radar the better we'll all be. That's another reason I can not support a public trial in NYC.
As you can see, I believe I've proffered well substantiated evidence for a case against most of what you've said in your thread.... Now before I finish, I'll tackle the little bit that remains, but this is gonna be where you and I may have more than a bone of contention. OK here we go, I now want to point out how back in 2002, private citizen Eric Holder was interviewed by Paula Zahn on CNN and he infaticaly stated, " terorist detainees should not fall under the Geneva Convention rules." After that I can't help but question, why all the flip floppin on his part now? I can ask that same question 50 different ways from Sunday but I still get the same answer, "it's all politicaly motivated"... from the SCOTUS ruling of 2006 to the decision now to hold the trial in NYC.... not even you can deny it's totally become a "Left v Right" thing.
SensiStar
You know what it comes down to.
They didn't get it done. No matter how hard they tried.
They tied there own hands but not following the law.
That's why the mess is still here. No matter how you try to spin it.
They didn't get it done and it's a steaming pile of dung.
Those were the cards Obama was dealt.
So they are picking which way to go with each individual case.
Now he could just prosecute the Bush admin for doing such a dung worthy job but then that would be upholding the law.
I'm sure you wouldn't want that.
stjam8
Cnn.com?transcipts 1/28/02, excerpts from the Paula Zahn interview with Eric Holder: Well I think you've got people on one hand saying that these folks who should not be treated pursuant to the Genva Convention and at the same time, you've going to have people saying "Well you know, what does this mean for our forces down the road?.... But I think the way to resolve it is, in fact, the way Secretary Powell has proposed, which is to say These are not people who are prisoners of war as that has been defined, but who are entitled to, IN OUR OWN INTERESTS, entitled to be treated in a a very humane way and almost consistent with all of the dictates of the Genva Convention.
ImNoPUNK
Hey "stjam8".....
You're more that a bit off in your paraphrasing of what Holder said in that interview.
When Powell is referring to "our interests", he is concerned with how our boys might be treated if captured while outta uniform and I agree with his concerns. Let me tell you something friend, my heart is right there with Gen Powell, however, al Qaeda doesn't abide by international laws of engaement...it doesn't give a damn if an opponent is in a uniform or a pink tutu. If al Qaeda captures a prisoner, that prisoner is as good as dead....... S.O.L, know what I mean ... Maybe you need to go ask Daniel Pearl's wife, remember he was killed on February 1, 2002. Talk to the family of the soldier who in June of 2006 was also decapitated while on video .....How long do you think Iraqi al Qaeda cared for and respected the 3 captured soldiers they executed in 2007 ... Their bodies were later found floating in the Euphraytes River. Open your eyes bud, al Qaeda doesn't give a damn about the rules of war or uniforms...they aren't gonna make sure prisoners have 3 hots and a cot.... and I'm willing to bet they don't give a damn about the detainees at Gitmo either.
I want to call your attention to something else you did. In your paraphrasing of Holder, you selectively omitted parts of Gen Powell's concerns .... so I'll be happy to fill in a crucial point you left out. To now paraphrase Eric Holder correctly ,"if anyone thinks the illegal combatants are being treated inhumanely all they have to do is go to Gitmo and see for themselves how well they are indeeed being treated."
I know who has a gripe to settle with Uncle Sam now, there are common garden variety prisoners being held in various locations through out the USA who are being treated worse than those bastards in Cuban cages....... So friend, you tell me, who do you think is getting the raw end of the deal here.. al Qaeda or American citizens in prison now ???
stjam8
Im no punk: I didn't paraphase, Holder. I gave a partial quote and my source to any interested in reading the entire interveiw. When I paraphase, I let the reader know. Our treatment of our prisoners at Abu ghriab and Guantanamo has been a great recruiting tool for our enemies. Our enemies have been barbaric. So are you suggesting we lower oursevles to their level? As far as "the common garden variety prisoners" here in American, none as far as I know have been watered boarded 187 times. What concerns me most about American prisoners, is our penal system has been privatized. A for profit system has lead to abuses.
ImNoPUNK
stjam8...
I'm also pissed off they water boarded KSM 187 times.... I would have shoved the hose up the other end and had him talking in 2 seconds..... there by successfully killing 2 birds with one stone... getting info while saving on the water bill too.
They'll use the fact you sit in a car with the opposite sex as a tool to recruit. ...
What part of "THEY CUT OUR HEADS OFF" do you not understand ???
wolverine1987
Unlike the rest of you, I'll comment on the article. Good analysis, every word is absolutely true.
crypto
crymeariver: The very first word outta your mouth was BUSH. Bush is GONE. Take responsibility. You guys can't come up with one reason why you voted this wannabe dictator into office. So you gotta stick to blaming somebody. Hell Pelosi said it for you. You won the election, you're totally in charge, you don't have to cooperate with anyone now, and you're going to do it your way. HER WORDS> So DO IT. Stop with the blame and take resonsibility for your Chosen One.
sophia5
Clearly Obama is a brilliant man, but does he know how to govern ?
Is he all style, no substance.
Does he truly represent the American People,
or the philosophy of Saul Alinsky, SEIU, George Soros ?
Does he believe in the Constitution and SMALL Government,
or did he study Constitutional Law as a means to
find ways to circumvent the Constitution, to EXPAND Government ?
That question can be asked of many politician these days.
How many of them actually believe in the Constitution, and small government ?
ImNoPUNK
to sophia5.....
Well said ...Bravo...
Monk66
sophia
great us of LOADED questions.
don't slip on the bullshit coming out of your mouth
Carole65
sophia5: Good post. Your question on his ability to govern hits the nail on the head. Jimmy Carter was one of the brightest Presidents, but his ability to lead was lacking. However, he was the opposite of Obama, in that he tended to micro-manage and didn't seem to trust his advisors. Obama, it seems, has relinquished his leadership to Emanuel, Axlerod, Pelosi, and Reid, while he goes around the world trying to placate the leaders. The problem with that is many of the leaders aren't buying it, ex: China.
megagood
@sophia5 - the Constitution was the starting point, and gave the legislature the ability to legislate to continue adding laws. The Constitution is not the only source of law in this country. If you don't like what Congress is doing, I hear ya, but the legislature performing its Constitution-ascribed job is not unconstitutional. The idea that "small government" proponents have some Constitution-backed, unassailable logic about what our government is legally supposed to be is not as strong as they like to think.
Egeshegava
Obama didn't walk into a mess...he's a living MESS and spreading.
Read this, idiot!
So Like Hitler's
Secret order to burn down the Reichstag (Congressional Parliament)...
Today on the 7th of November 2009, more than half of the US Congress in
Audience and Allegiance and "Under-Advise" filled our great hall
With their cheeks and eyelids twitching uncontrollably,
Broke faith with our trust and crumbled the Constitution,
Knowing the Realization was Obama's and his alone,
To have Destroyed The House of Representatives.
"The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow
the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all
conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms
have prepared their own downfall by so doing."
Adolph Hitler
"We are in danger of forgetting that the Bill of Rights reflects
experience with police excesses. It is not only under Nazi rule that
police excesses are inimical to freedom. It is easy to make light of
insistence on scrupulous regard for the safeguards of civil liberties
when invoked on behalf of the unworthy. It is too easy. History
bears testimony that by such disregard are the rights of liberty
extinguished, heedlessly at first, then stealthily, and brazenly in the
end."
Justice Felix Frankfurter
******************
The destruction of European Jewry in Kristallnacht began 5 years before November, 1938. All jews in Germany were officially disarmed of personal weapons by a 1938 gun control law which denied firearms ownership to "enemies of the state."
When will Obama seize the personal weapons of US citizens as Adolph Hitler began to do in March 1933? The time appears to be closing in when Herr Hussein will do so. He has already negated constitutional laws and used executive "liberties" to revoke congressional surveys, budget-controls, etc.
On November 7th, 2009 he made a personal appearance to kill "the open rule" of general debate in the House on its conception date, but truly will end up co-sponsoring various and sundry later amendments in the Senate where the bill is destined via the conf. committee.
It was the Enabling Act, passed on March 23, 1933, that surrendered the Reichstag's (equivalent to our republic's Congress) legislative power to the "Cabinet," a group of 11-members led by Hitler, which also included 2 other Nazi party members, Herman Goering and Dr. Wilhelm Frick. Hitler was in charge of course. Frick was the Interior Minister, a position enriched by the situation of multitudes of Nazi reformers primarily found in the SA, SS and Stahlhelm-Freikorps (the latter were veterans of WWI) in active aggression against "communist and other radical elements" inside Germany in the 30-ties.
Hitler like Obama was willing to transpose one enemy to "enlarge" a greater threat from a much weaker, neopolitical, self-serving, hardly survivable threat like the communist radicals. Authoritarian power always requires a central charismatic opponent to hate and destroy, and the present conservative-rising (today's House Republicans) movement (now in TeaParty mode) is that vehicle for Herr Hussein. Healthcare is his outrage now; in 3 months by estimation the issue will be the 2nd Amendment and private ownership of weapons.
Major newspapers in Germany and radio announced on 3/31/33 that "all military weapons and ammo in private possession will have to be surrendered." Frick ordered the deadline for the Ordnance of Surrender of weapons (3/28/33) to be carried out by the police (all local, civic, city-wide) to ensure "that the population opposed to the national government (the Fascist govt. in the person of Hitler) bear no military weapons in their homes." A "military weapon" included any automatics, army revolvers, and bolt-action rifles.
Only those who were discerned to have a "loyal attitude" or were SS,SA, Stahlhelm and party members, would be allowed secretly to keep their weapons at home. Searches and confiscation (including the home of Albert Einstein, whose only weapon was a breadknife) were mass-conducted flouting the old constitutional protections equivalent to the ones we possess today. Thousands of "hunts" were conducted by the local police assisted by Nazi party members, of which there were hundreds of thousands in the 3 loyal groups mentioned above. Special "commissars" or "gun confiscation-officials" who were listed by name in the many nation's newspapers were to receive the "surrendered" weapons in a "timely manner" from citizens in possession of any military weapon. If not surrendered, "tremendous consequences" (Frick quoted) would result.
ARTICLE 1 2 of the Enabling Act of 1933 gave Hitler's Cabinet of 11 the power to enact laws "outside and to deviate from" the German Constitution. Obama as well as Hitler would however have loved the engaging toxicity of the 3rd ARTICLE: "The laws decreed by the Cabinet (subsequently, Obama and his Czars) are to be drafted by the Chancellor (Hitler's title, and second only to the President, who was then an ailing, dying, nearly powerless Hindenburg) and announced in the Reichgesitzblatt (equiv. to our Congressional Record)." (***What a farce the Congressional Record will read on the night of 11/7/09: "Dozens of attempts by Republican Congressmen and women to SPEAK WERE DENIED!")
Slowly but deliberately Obama will press his program "to build a future of happiness...the realization of this future will be the mission of the youth" enthroned with police powers, and a comatose Congress and a fawning media which will never be disillusioned with him. His dark web of intrigue and Machiavellian struggle for power and his increasing cynicism for conservatives, Fox Media, senior citizens, freedom-strivers, etc. raises the Halloween disguise he dons now of "restoring law and order." That is what he will invoke to seize millions of weapons using the ACORN menace to advance a police-enforced agenda locally and nationally. They will carry out and report (as Hitler found his youth reformers to be) each isolated occurance of a conservative acting in violation of the "enabling laws" Obama will pass in 2010.
Hitler, soon after the death of President Hindenburg in August 2, 1934, required General von Bloomberg to have all soldiers of the Reichswehr (national military services) swear the oath that was printed in all newspapers and national media. "I pledge before God my sacred oath of absolute obedience to the Leader of the Reich and the German People, Adolph Hitler, the Supreme Commander of the Wehrmacht." IN JUST 2 YEARS consolidation of govt. led by the Executive, total inertia in a dissipated Congress, elimination of half a dozen major political enemies of Nationalist SOCIALISM, arrests of thousands of (in our case, conservative) internal-radicals and hundreds of their executions had/could imminently gave/could give Herrs H H the orgy of power each man craved/craves.
stjam8
Egeshegava: Last November, when I stood in line to vote, I saw people in line that I didn't even know were ever registered to vote. For many years,the excuse was, I don't want to serve jury duty. Some of these people are hunters and expressed concern whether there was anything on the ballot about taking away guns. I told them there was nothing like that on the ballot. What concerned me was the mob mentality I saw during the campaign. When Palin continued to say things, like"palling around with terrorists" inspite of the crowds yelling "Hang him". What was even more disturbing was in August seeing people show up at town halls with loaded weapons and signs saying "The tree of liberty needs to watered with the blood of tyrants..." I wonder how many lawbiding citizens seeing these people with loaded weapons decided that day, maybe it was too dangerous to go to the town hall meetings. And those that did go, how many felt it was safe to ask questions or to make any statements that were contrary to what they saw on the signs. The people yelling loudest about our first and second amendments are demonstrating quite clearly that we still have these rights. Even when these people showed no prudence, by showing up at town hall meeting with loaded wepons. At tea party rallys and Bachmann rally there were signs that said "We didn't bring our guns this time, horrific pictures of the holocaust. Contrast these rallys with a couple at a Bush rally that showed up wearing anti-Bush t-shirts and were arrested. During the Bush years anyone who disagreed with Bush and his war in Iraq was was considered unpatrotic.I don't remember much outcry when Bush suspended habea corpus and estabished the Patriot Act. The accusations against our President have been fast and furious. He has been accused of both, not being able to govern and having some secret agenda. Egeshegava, you and others have expressed fears what Our President Might do, and at the same time expressing such hatred for him and how he can't get anything done. Our liberties were suspended under Bush, and there was no outcry. One can only conclude that what concerns most of these people is our President is black.
ImNoPUNK
Hey stjam8...
Ya know...I gave you the benefit of the doubt and read what you had to say....I was saying to myself, "OK, yeah I can see where some one might see that as a problem".... but then you HAD to inject "race" as the catalyst for all that is wrong . You're comments are so typical of a deceptive ideology that's imploding on its own.
stjam8
Im no punk; I reported what I have seen and gave my conclusion of it's cause. You can't disagree with the facts I reported. Please explain why there was no outcry when our liberties were suspended under President Bush. I didn't see any tea parties then. But now we hear about conspiracies to take our freedoms away. The fear and hatemongering has been unrelenting. The paranoia of what our President might do, and at the same time screaming, He can't get anything done. Bush didn't concern himself too much with governering, He spent more time on vacation then any other President before him. I guess we should be grateful, he preferred clearing bush on his ranch.
gak001
Nazism is fascism - it has about as much to do with socialism as being a Republican makes you a communist because of the People's Republic of China.
Until President Obama starts killing millions of people for being "genetically inferior," maybe you should lay off the Hitler analogies. And the Kool-Aide for that matter.
ImNoPUNK
Hey stjam8...
Sounds like you don't get outta the house much, and I'm sure it's safe to say the only info you've managed to glean about Tea Parties is spoon fed to you via TDB or PMSNBC, to name a few.
Might I suggest you attend a Tea Party ,,,as a matter of fact come to the one I'll be at.... No need to give you my name or tell you what I look like... You'll soon know who I am, I'll be holding the sign that reads, "FOR THE FIRST TIME IN THE LAST FORTY YEARS I AGAIN FEEL THE NEED TO PROTEST WHAT MY GOVERNMENT IS DOING ."
Monk66
please provide me with evidence that Obama is trying to take our guns away.
I heard that a lot from Palin during the campaign. and yet I haven't seen or heard of it in any legistlature.
so please. If you're going to claim he is taking our guns away like you do with every other democrat who runs for high office,
PROVE IT
stjam8
Im no punk: Perhaps you protest that too much.The imploding deceptive ideology is the idea, the right wing republicans can appeal to less people and still win races. Thank you for the invite to the tea party. The hyerpole demagoguery by Beck, that is spoonfed to the tea party is just a hoot. If I decide to go to a tea party, it will be with the Madhatter. He makes more sense.
osea65
Stjam8, you were doing great right up to the last sentence , where you screwed it all up!!!! Nobody with half a brain is interested in our president's skin color, and those who do consider that a valid criteria, simply don't count!!! You nullified your comment by bringing in the completely obsolete and drained race excuse!!! We have serious problems that require serious solutions, please don't belittle and hamper the process with the race banality ever again!!!
stjam8
Osea65 and Im no punk; You, both agree with what I have reported. But neither of you like my conclusion, but offer none of your own. The fact is the Civil discourse has been "hampered and belittled "by the things I have reported. My reporting of what I see and my conclusion of it cause, is not the problem. The things I have reported are the some of the reasons we have failed to have civil discourse. Here's more facts to back up my conclusions. Signs that depicted our President as a witch doctor, eating fried chicken, with a hilter mustche, "Death to Obama, Michele and their 2 Ugly children. E-mails that showed water melons growing on the front lawn of the White House. People wailing they want their country back. Back from what? There is more, but you should get the point. The GOP elected officials that keep saying they hope our President fails and work to undermine every effort for a bi-partsian bills. Osea65 I agree with you, we have serious problems, But if you are member of the tea party, as, Im no punk, you need to address those people in your group that show up with these signs. Other wise you will continue to deal with accusations of racism. The following is an excerpt From Turning Over a Wet Rock. Saldly, the republican party, that once stood for principals like rugged Individualism, staunch anti-Totalitarianism and love of country has become the haven of the one-eight of Americans whose worlds rotate around fear and hatred, hatred and fear. [Mis-] led by Daddy Warbucks- types like the Mellon family and their paid Goebbles hacks like Limbaugh and Beck, these treasonous Yahoos [ what else would you call people who call for the violent overthrow of the elected government and yowl thinly veiled appeals for lynching and assinassination] have violated every standard of politese, decency, and rational discourse. Rob Schultheis,is the author,who has spent decades in Afghanistan and 7 months in Iraq.
OldCrow
KSM was ready to plead guilty until Obama stopped the military tribunal last January. Obama is just looking for a way to free a Islamic terrorist.
gak001
Your comment is entirely without merit and is offensive to thinking people everywhere.
crypto
Crow you're gonna get your butt jumped all over for that statement. But the way Holder and Bamason handled this you may very well be on the right track. The first words out of the defense's mouth will be "judge, the president of the United States and the attorney general have already said in public that my client is guilty therefore the defense request the court rule mistrial". AND Holder said while being questioned by the senate, " if by some fluke these men are aquitted they will not be released..........in the United States. Now What the heck does that mean???
gak001
That they'll get released in another country.
Aren't you guys supposed to be strict constructionists or at least textualists? The denotes a certain level of reading comprehension. If you can handle a convoluted sentence like the 2nd Amendment, I'm sure you can handle a simple statement made in plain English.
bigman9099
Old Crow,
You cannot possibly believe that. It is loaded with ignorance and stupidity. Come on son.....
Rafter
Broken record. It's all I hear from Liberals when asked "their opinion" of a particular bone-headed move from "their" guy. The answer (if you would call it that) is invaribly "Bush.....blah, blah, blah." That seems to be the extent of "their opinion".
That's like trying to justify one murder by contrasting it with some other person's two murders.
bridget1145
What nonsense. The Bush administration wanted military trials for these people...just as was done in World War II and after. To think that we can treat terrorists (enemies of the US) who have attacked us as citizens is absurd. These 'little cowards' as you call them destroyed both towers of the World Trade Center and surrounding buildings at the heart of our economic district, destroyed a major portion of our Pentagon, attempted to hit the White House/and or the Congress and killed over 3000 people. They did untold damage to our economy and now you want to pay for a major security and a trial in the very same place where they murdered thousands. Unbelievable. Mr. Holder wants a trial for what he deems tortue and to blame Bush and of course that demonized man, Cheney. Talk about off the wall hysteria.... The very people who stood in the way of the military trials for these men (their lawyers) , are now sitting in the Department of Justice claiming it took too long for these men to be 'given justice'. Justice would have been a firing squad ... given they were dressed as civilians and not even eligible by international agreements on war - - to be given a military trial.
Like everything Obama has done, this is a political action by him and the left that apparently controls his actions. "Nothing for 7 years" no major attacks on the US.... that's a 'nothing' that Obama will repeat, I fear. His motivations are becoming more and more questionable every single day.
Kingyahoo
Well-reasoned arguments crymeariver. I totally agree. Lee Siegel's "Obama's egalitarian faux-democracy, in which the illusion of responding to every side in a debate undercuts the democratic process of actually arriving at a decision" shows a lack of logical thinking.It is a real shame when the media cannot differentiate between a new approach that is noticed and appreciated world-wide and a constipated Republican pile of sh.t of more of the same.
memo02
If Obama can't control him self how he can control his own people ?, this is an disaster, Obama is waiting the Health Care Reform pass, to finance and continue the war,.
Listen people, if the Senate pass the Health Care Bill, he will continue with this war !, But, if the Congress don't pass it will be no war, Every Body will back Home !,
This is not will support any body here, Obama needs the money to support the war and we all will go broke, just remember this !,November 21,2009 ....
Monk66
connect the dots for me memo.
djenna8girl
or the commas even...
memo02
The game of this administration is to work whit Confucianism so all Americans get divided on ideology's, plant terror and fear, by now many of us are on test, as we know this now, what is going to be next ?, I know it already, just to let you know save all your money and the most valuable, you will need it at near future !, no body is going to help you !, why cause we all will be at the same situation !,...
winston1
I think this trial in the American courts of terrorist's is going to be the downfall of Obama. This can backfire big time because of Obama and Eric {FALN} Holder. Both men are lawyer's and should no better making comments on TV and claiming what the outcome wiil be, before the trial even gets started is stupid and inexcusible,
I guess Obama and Holder do not understand "That a person is innocent until proven guilty".. There is a good chance of a mistrial because of this mishap.
crypto
Winston: I don't believe that was a mistake. I think you will see the presidents and Holder's remarks will be the defense's first address to the judge.
Natural-Selection
True....how can anyone get a fair trial when POTUS has said they will be tried and executed? That will be interesting to see in this impending circus!
floridabob
People are so used to having an un-thinking President, they don't know how to react to a thinking one.
ImNoPUNK
I'm sure you'll be the 1st to let the world know when we finally do have a Commander in Chief who indeed knows not only how to think...but thinks before he tell the rest of us how to think.
crypto
If we get one next time I'll practice 'till I get it right. "A thinking president". What will they think of next??
khepri
I think the major point of Siegel's piece was about Obama's feckless, ambivalent leadership style. I think this has been well documented, and IMHO, has far more serious implications for us than any 911 trial.
ndspinelli
Obama and Holder["slam dunk"] both assured us a conviction. That besmirches the very legal system they allegedly revere, where the presumption of innocence is paramount. The author is correct. This is about putting Bush/Cheney tactics on trial. The tactics may indeed warrant a public airing. However, you don't bastardize the legal system to achieve that. You have the integrity and gonads to do it in a straightforward manner.
Egeshegava
Obama and Holder will sacrifice the becalmed NYC environment to a terrorist Muslum strike which will resemble the Chechin strike on the Russian school. Thank-you President Putz and your cohorts!
opedanderson
Yes Obama inherited a mess. And yes, the mess was the doing of the Repubs and Bush and his cronies. But the hard reality is that Obama fought tooth and nail to get the job. He over promised us, held some eloquent speeches and spend 600$ million to get there.
Don't sit back now and just whine about what he inherited.
It's getting old.
attilathehunny
I actually agree with much of this article. I don't think Obama is showing great leadership and granting a civilian trial to KSM who has openly admitted his guilt is unfathomable to me. On another note, in terms of the "mess" he inherited, you liberals might want to do your homework and do a little research on something called the Glass -Steagull act. Not only did this limit potential risk for the individual investor but for investment banks as well. Unfortunately, Obama's cronies in the administration, particularly Rubin (Citibank anyone???) dismantled this act under Clinton (my how the facts get in the way of some good old Bush bashing!) which was really a HUGE contributing factor to this current fiscal crisis.
ImNoPUNK
Hey atillathehunny...
I agree with your comment ....For some time now I've been bringing to the table the names of Rubin, Greenspan, Summers, Levitt, Giethner Clinton , Dodd,, Frank as well as the only righteous person in the mix, Brookesly Born.... For some totally "unknown" inexplainable reason the left doesn't want to talk about the real beginnings of the economic meltdown..... It would be a first if they did, but I won't hold my breath .
rickgoldin
"Obama, The Undecider" ???? I am so sick and tired of the media steering public opinon I could SCREAM !!! In the just over 10 months Obama has been in office, this current President has saved the financial system of this country. And because our financial system is so inter-twined with the world's financial system, has managed to put the brakes on a worldwide financial crash of epic proportions. How's that for decision making? Does that count as a decision ... to do something worth while? Bottom line, die hard Republicans and the modern era of hightech gratification and need for instant satisfaction have created an atmosphere in which Obama can not win ... no matter what decision he makes or what his intent is. Let's be honest with ourselves, people ... we are still recovering from 8 years of an idiot and all his cronies who virtually bankrupted this nation. The first thing GWB after pulling off the wildest Presidential election in history was to give away the only asset the Federal Government has ... a healthy surplus that any economist will tell you should have been held in reserve to manage tough times like what we're going though right now. And then, to add insult to injury, he managed to push (as if that's the right word to describe a cake walk) through a Republican Congress a tax CUT for the wealthiest Americans. My God, this isn't rocket science, people. Just poor attitudes, sniping demeanors and ignorant rants from people who can't seem to see the forest for the trees. And these are the very same people who blog comments on this service every day and amount to no more than "armchair" politicians. Is there any chance these same people might consider how it's almost next to impossible to do anything with the current political system; one in which otherwise highly intelligent people take positions on critical issues just to be counted in the fold by the prevailing opposition? Time for a change to the entire system, folks. This form of representative governance was created to carry the wishes of the populace to the seats of government because the common people had no other way of expressing their opinions and wishes. Today, internet, television and the telephones make that need irrelevant. Besides, only those with vast sums of money can afford to run for office. And when they get to DC, they do what their party (and greed) tell them to do. The whole thing is a sickening mess. And TDB beast ~ AND ALL YOU LITTLE SNIPING BLOGGERS OUT THERE ~ are a big part of the problem. Now then, how's that for middle America from the heart of Alabama? Caucasian male, middle income, 51 years of age and fed up as I can be with all y'all whinning, opinionated cry babies.
attilathehunny
ok, since you are from Alabama you know nothing of the 2000 election other than what you read. My husband, myself and many of our friends (of both political parties) voted in that election as we lived in Palm Beach. You had to be the biggest idiot on the planet to mess that up. I mean seriously! It was not rocket science! And then of course we had to live with our bridges being shut down(so we couldn't leave the island) so the almighty Reverends of good faith and crisis/racist opportunity Al and Jesse could come to town and spew how blacks were prohibited from voting. I had so many liberal friends who worked these polling booths in black neighborhoods who were stunned at these accusations. Of course that is nothing compared to what happened in this election with Acorn and the Black Panthers....which Holder of course would do nothing about. But then again, he was part of that pardon for one of our greatest Marc Rich.....
ImNoPUNK
Hey rickgoldin...
First you start off with some words of merit...but it didn't take you but a few more sentences to show your true colors and fall in to lock step with the rest of your pack. It's at that point even the credibility of how you make sweet tea was put in jeopardy.
stjam8
Great post!
valwayne
It will be a good trick, but its doubtful even someone with Obama's skills at lying and manipulating will be able to pull it off. The facts next year will remain. 10.2% plus UNEMPLOYMENT! A country mired deeply in debt with Obama and Congress plunging us even more deeply into the quicksand. The public is already opposed to spending hundreds of millions of dollars on OJ like Circus trials so as we get close to the 2010 elections a horrible economy, a foeign policy of weakness, indecision, and appeasement, and the daily Circus of the trials may delight the move.org crowd, but to the rest of the country it will seem like things are spiraling out of control, which they will be, and that probalby means bye bye Democrats. Of course, that is really exactly what Obama is counting on in the lead up to 2012. He needs a Republican Congress to blame for the disaster his policies are creating. If the Democrats retain control in 2010 he is toast in 2012. I wonder how many Democrats in Congress understand that their losing their jobs in 2010 is Obama's reelection strategy???
briansays
The Elmer Gantry of politics
Maezeppa
The Alfred E. Neuman of commentors.
ImNoPUNK
Hey ...Maezeppa... I like you better when you blow your own horn.
Maezeppa
LOL The only thing "grandiose" and pompous is Lee Seigle's goofball attempts at "analysis".
stjam8
Seigle's last article "Obama's Dangerous Obession" was so pooly written, I scrolled up to check if it had been written by Megan McCain. Dragon Sorpion nailed it with his comment.
sonofloud
Obama is a wimp and a coward, it is as simple as that. He is incapable of making a decision and sticking to it.....unless it benefits Wall Street or organized religion that is.
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