Cheat Sheet
The Best In Brief
Italy Convicts 23 Americans for CIA Kidnap
An Italian judge convicted 23 Americans on kidnapping charges on Wednesday for their roles in the CIA's extraordinary rendition of Osama Moustafa Hassan Nasr, an Egyptian cleric. The stiffest sentence was handed to the Milan CIA station chief Robert Seldon Lady—eight years in prison. The other 22 were sentenced to five years in jail, while three Americans—including then-Rome CIA chief Jeffrey Castelli and two Rome embassy diplomats—and several Italians were acquitted. The U.S. State Department was "disappointed about the verdicts," while civil rights groups like the ACLU celebrated the powerful symbolic indictment of Bush-era counterterror tactics. One of the convicted Americans, Sabrina DeSousa, will admit tonight on ABC News that "we broke the law." (DeSousa is in the midst of a legal battle against the State Department, which she says unfairly denied her diplomatic immuity.) All of the Americans were tried in absentia. As long as they avoid travel to Europe, they will likely be able to avoid their sentences, since Italy is unlikely to use any, ahem, extraordinary methods to force the convicted Americans back onto Italian soil for their prison terms.
Plantagenet
I wonder who leaked the information about the CIA apprehension of Mr. Nasr, a leading member of an Islamic terrorist organization?
kdj-kdj
Who cares?
Perhaps we shouldn't have overstepped our bounds in a sovereign country.
Would it now be right for the Italians to come to the US and arrest these people?
Plantagenet
The whole purpose of having a secret foreign intelligence agency is to "overstep bounds" in foreign countries and do necessary but terrible things. Thats why it is secret.
Unfortunately, liberals are too naive to understand that the world is a dangerous place, and secret intelligence agencies like the CIA are a necessary evil.
kdj-kdj
Good that I'm not liberal, then.
So what you are saying that it is okay for the US government to invade sovereign countries to apprehend who we feel we should? That would make the US the world's policemen.
Is that what you say we are?
Plantagenet
Hi kdj:
You don't understand. Intelligence services aren't policemen. They are something far more deadly. Intelligence services are conducting war in secret.
Every country in the world has a secret intelligence service that does secret things. When terrorists killed thousands of Americans on 9/11 our intelligence services did secret things that nice liberals don't approve of to try to stop additional attacks. Our intelligence service secretly killed people, kidnapped people, interrogated people and tortured people to disrupt the terror networks and to learn who the terrorists were and what kinds of additional mass murder attacks they were planning against the United States.
kdj-kdj
Again I ask, Plant, would it be okay for the Italians to come to the US and snatch these convicts from our streets?
Plantagenet
Hi kdj:
Kidnapping is a crime---don't you know that?
Now that you have learned that kidnapping is a crime, perhaps you can better understand why the CIA and foreign secret intelligence agencies who kidnap people to interrogate them do it secretly.
Mauiboy
It's too bad the Israeli secret police that were in the US didn't inform our sources here that they knew 9/11 was about to take place. We may have been able to avert it and the two wars that we are mired in right now. Here is a link to that article that is eye-opening:
http://lespolitiques.blogspot.com/2007/02/what-israel-knew-before-911.html
kdj-kdj
That you are complacent about our government invading other countries to arrest those we feel should be arrested... illegally... says so much about you, Plant.
You condone illegal activities... and not even the fun kind.
Bravo.
Plantagenet
Hi kdj:
Again, you are confusing secret intelligence agencies with police agencies. They are very different things. Your criticism of the CIA for not following the rules that policemen follow is very naive.
kdj-kdj
Plant...
You refuse to address anything I say.
Kudos.
Whatever the agency, illegal is illegal. Those who break laws should face punishment.
I welcome the Italian government to SECRETLY come to the US and arrest these people.
Plantagenet
Hi kdj:
I've addressed every single question you've asked---some of them multiple times.
Cheers!
kdj-kdj
Making a statement does not make it true.
Should Italy send people to the US to secretly arrest the convicts?
Plantagenet
Hi kdj:
I've repeatedly answered your question but you don't seem to get it.
Lets try once more time. Please read the words slowly so you get it: Kidnapping is a crime.
The answer doesn't change no matter how many times you ask it, kidnapping is still a crime. Do you get it now?
Cheers!
socialworklady
Whenever Plant has been
Out argued, S/he writes:
Cheers!
Plantagenet
Hi socialworklady.
The streetpersonlady needs some help...do you have some food vouchers?
Cheers!
NinjaSauce
Plant said: "The whole purpose of having a secret foreign intelligence agency is to "overstep bounds" in foreign countries and do necessary but terrible things. Thats why it is secret."
This is an incredibly bad argument. The reason why it's secret is because it's illegal...therefore it's ok? An argument like that can only be cooked up in the head of a far-right loon.
Yes, the world is a dangerous place. Kidnapping/Torturing people outside of the judicial process makes it worse, not better. Once we accept the legitimacy of extrajudicial entities and their behaviour, so goes the rule of law. The judicial process is made to protect the innocent people from persecution. Yes, it makes it more difficult to get the guilty, but this is the "necessary evil" we should be protecting, not your crazy notion of justice.
"Everyone is doing it" is not acceptable coming from a 12 year old, it's not acceptable for the world's only super-power.
roadhunter
kdj-kdj - Yes, precisely. The USA is the world's police force. It's our duty as the most powerful nation on earth.
Italians coming in to our country to arrest anyone? Not likely. Italy is an ally, and if they wanted someone arrested, they'd call the US and ask us to do it.
Plantagenet
Hi Nin:
You are having a looney fantasy that you've cooked up in your own far-left head. I never said it was "ok" for the CIA to overstep its bounds and do illegal things. I said that it is sometimes necessary for the CIA to do illegal things.
I'm not the only person who thinks so. President Obama has said the US will continue to do renditions while he is president.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/4 425135/Barack-Obama-to-allow-anti-terror-rendition-to-continue.html
I don't agree with very many of Obama's policies, but I support him on this one.
NinjaSauce
@Plantagenet
You're mincing words in a futile attempt to rationalize something that is intrinsically irrational.
You can't say something is "not ok" or "not acceptable" or "not ____", then turn around and say it should be done anyway. It's delusional to pretend that somehow makes any sense.
Extrajudicial rendition is wrong, whether it's being done by Bush, or Obama. I repeat, the judicial process is there to protect the innocent. Without it, our freedoms cannot be guaranteed.
As Ben Franklin said, He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither.
You guys are so gung-ho about losing your freedoms regarding health-care (which is a complete exaggeration), and somehow, it's fine to sacrifice the sovereignty and freedom of other states, in order to secure your own?
Hypocrisy, arrogance, greed, all balled up into one.
donquijoterocket
Maybe it was deadeye dickless cheney. He's pretty good at leaking material but generally only when when it might serve to advance the prospects of deadeye dickless cheney.
Spartann
Hey donquiote...
Just a reminder..... You're still going hunting with Cheney next weekend, right ???
I'd hate for you to miss out on the good time in store for you .
Garvagh
Plantagenet: Are you aware that the Italian security services had been tracking the same man and were preparing to arrest him for trial in Italy?
AnonymousUser
The information was not leaked. It was a combination of high tech detective work on the part of the Italians as well as a lack of precaution on part of the CIA. They tracked the cell phone activity in the area, and noticed very non random usage. It turns out the phones were all purchased with the same or similar credit cards which were also used to pay for costs throughout the operation, such as hotels and rental cars.
This user is no longer registered.
kdj-kdj
I see, brown...
The US is the world's policeman. It's written in our Constitution... right? Sovereignty means nothing to us policemen. We were given the right by the world's countries to act on our own behalf to right the world's wrongs... in secret.
Mite makes right. So benevolent of us.
ToulouseL
I do have to agree with KDJ on this one, when he said Mite makes right. It may be cruel, or unfair, or unruly. But when you look at our government, you need to understand that they are like fat kids and snickers. They want the Candy Bar, and damnit, if they can't have it, then no one can.
Oh and not to mention, we are a very greedy country and we just happen to have a record of going into a meaningless war and spend so much money to win a little bit of oil and find weapons that may or may have not been there..
Again, strength beats intelligence. Or diplomacy. What ever you call it.
artois
Do you ever leave your hovel? Only americans presumes the US acts fairly.The rest of the world merely spits back the propaganda the US serves up...
Plantagenet
Bbrown is right. Liberals are so naive.
The CIA is not a police agency and it has no interest in acting fairly. That is precisely why it acts in secret.
This user is no longer registered.
ManchaTheo
Please don't even think for a second the rest of the world expects and wants to be policed by the US... the fact is the for the past 60 years administration after administration has thrust itself on the rest of the world whether they wanted it or not.
As for being held to a higher standard and being the only country that acts fairly, the mere thought that you don't act 100% to serve your own interests (granted like every other country) is humorous at best, offensive at worse.
You complain you're put on a pedestal, this argument only goes to show how self-inflicted it a situation it is.
MaCaCa
You're way off bb, America is not nor shouldn't be the world's policeman. We may be involved in many concerns worldwide, but those are to protect our national interest, we're not a police force. I wouldn't be surprised you've never left the country, are even your hovel for that matter.
And Plantagenitals, why must nutjobs like you reduce everything to that bullshit dichotomy of liberal vs conservative?
barrett
Let's rename spaghetti "American Noodles".
when-the-whip-comes-down
Mr Nasr's apprehension was witnessed and led to an investigation.
Planted agent, If the agency does such terrible things and oversteps the bounds of the law... whats not to say that any thing that you hear from the agency is credible... that they might be simply be working in the interests of the Zionists and not with your best interests at heart...
Oh! I'm sorry! I Forgot that you stand aligned with the Zionists at every move!
MaliciousDisorder
Since Obama has kept nearly all the supposed bad renditions Bush set up to protect the country, I suspect he'll be on the hit list for trial as soon as he's out of office. Couldn't hapen to a more deserving traitor.
LeftCoastRightBrain
Mauiboy, you simply can't be serious. That's the most ludicrous pile of dung that's in mass circulation.
mzkitti
So what else is new? The CIA is a rogue organization... they have been this for forty years.
Remember when everyone jumped on Pelosi because she said the CIA lied.... Well, the CIA lies all the time.
The CIA should have been disbanded forty years ago. they have cause more trouble for the US than anyone can imagine.
Plantagenet
Actually, people jumped on Pelosi because the CIA told the truth. Pelosi was on the intelligence oversight committee, where she was briefed on renditions, water torture, and the other secret activities of the CIA. Pelosi lied and claimed she wasn't briefed, but she was outed as a liar when the other members of the committee that she had been briefed and the notes from the meetings proved she'd been briefed.
This user is no longer registered.
Plantagenet
Hi brown:
I know its a waste of time trying to reason with these dolts but they are so amazingly stupid it makes me laugh.
Cheers!
when-the-whip-comes-down
Sorry plant but your memory fails you again or you are simply rewriting history... the hub bub at the time was about how the CIA was withholding and misleading congress:
The director of the Central Intelligence Agency, Leon E. Panetta, has told the House Intelligence Committee in closed-door testimony that the C.I.A. concealed "significant actions" from Congress from 2001 until late last month, seven Democratic committee members said.
In a June 26 letter to Mr. Panetta discussing his testimony, Democrats said that the agency had "misled members" of Congress for eight years about the classified matters, which the letter did not disclose. "This is similar to other deceptions of which we are aware from other recent periods," said the letter, made public late Wednesday by Representative Rush D. Holt, Democrat of New Jersey, one of the signers.
In an interview, Mr. Holt declined to reveal the nature of the C.I.A.'s alleged deceptions,. But he said, "We wouldn't be doing this over a trivial matter."
The chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, Representative Silvestre Reyes, Democrat of Texas, referred to Mr. Panetta's disclosure in a letter to the committee's ranking Republican, Representative Peter Hoekstra of Michigan, Congressional Quarterly reported on Wednesday. Mr. Reyes wrote that the committee "has been misled, has not been provided full and complete notifications, and (in at least one occasion) was affirmatively lied to."
And that can be found at:
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/cia_lying_to_congress/
What came public in May made Pelosi look bad but the further revelations made the CIA take it on the chin. Nice try but no cigar.
slmpirate
Plant..You up to your old rhetorical tricks again..
I know you can do better than what you have psoted above..
Come on plant, back your statement up with a link that proves your position....That is unless you are a only practicing what you were taught in freshman debate class.. Surely there exist a story supporting your claim...You will post a link wont you..?
Desertpenguin
kdj-kdj--
You baited Plantagenet and bbrown13 like a pro.
Well done.
kdj-kdj
I'm a master baiter.
when-the-whip-comes-down
Gasp!
whipmawhopma
kdj-kdj - So are many of the posters here. I was amused by your attempt to get Plantagenet to answer what is essentially a yes-or-no question in a straightforward manner, but Jedi mind tricks don't work on Hutts.
billblast
what is required to keep our nation, founded on genocide, safe from others who want to practice genocide on us? i know that i would rather buy and personally use a weapon to fight for my existence here in the usa than to have creeps like these cia / blackwater / kbr scum raping and torturing and disappearing any other human being (suspect or innocent) in my name or with my tax dollars. american men and women are mostly cowards, letting someone else do the ugly vicious stuff of survival so they can sit on their fat asses reading people and usa today and watching organized sports on teee-veee.
jus1drun
bill you must be a blast to hang out with. have a nice day.
when-the-whip-comes-down
Our government is a industry that is only profitable by generating mayhem from which to protect us from.
This comment has been removed by The Daily Beast's editors.
sggunase
So what? Not a single one will ever see the inside of a jail cell. They just won't be able to take the family to Naples...ever.
Plantagenet
Perhaps in response we should ask for the 10 billion dollars back that Obama gave to Fiat?
timcruz
you must take pride in yourself for sounding like a douchebag.
Get a job you bum and stop living off welfare.
This user is no longer registered.
kdj-kdj
He has a job. He's paid to make these stupid comments.
Just ask him. He'll admit it.
This user is no longer registered.
slmpirate
Naw...I say let Fiat keep it....That's what crony capitalism is all about..As a conservative plant, you should know what crony capitalism is..
when-the-whip-comes-down
"but few hang in there for the long run like our Plant."
That leads me to believe that plant is on some payroll for propagating disinformation.
downbytheriver00
Hey Honey, does this mean our two weeks in Tuscany during harvest will be delayed???
kscr14
What planet do some of you come from????
Plantagenet
If you are looking for space aliens from a specific planet, try the chat page over at the "coast-to-coast" website.
Cheers!
kdj-kdj
See? Plant knows all the hot-spots... the places to be.
Plantagenet
Hi kdj:
What planet do you come from? I'm guessing you are from the planet Mongo?
when-the-whip-comes-down
"Plant knows all the hot-spots... the places to be." Nailed it!
hithere3
Dear Italy,
Feel free to come on over and "rendition" those who were convicted. In exchange for my complicity, could you just... grab Dick Cheney while you're over here?
Yours truly,
hithere3
kdj-kdj
See Dick run.
when-the-whip-comes-down
That would be "overstepping the bounds of terrible things"
whipmawhopma
hithere3 - Excellent idea. I also volunteer my complicity.
angels81
Well I can see plant has been watching way to many James Bond movies.
I think maybe plant should take the time to read the mandate of the CIA and the laws of this country concerning the CIA. Rouge agents breaking treaties and international laws that this country has signed with Sovereign nations, who happen to be allies of ours, goes against everything we stand for.
The Italians were on the verge of arresting this terrorist, and a bunch of rouge agents stepped in without the rule of law behind them and kidnapped him. The CIA may be a secret agency, but it still has to abide by our rules of law, otherwise we will lose our democracy and freedoms that we have fought for, for over 200 hundred years.
ukeman
Well said.
slmpirate
angles81... No plant has its arms around all of this..You see all of us "liberals" are naive because we dont agree with its world view..The world is a scarry place and according to plant and his new minion brown those who dont agree with them dont know anything.
Our collective experience in the world cant be correct because they see it differently
pretty standard fare when you cant back a position with credible links..just the same old rhetoric from the same ole morons...
ukeman
This is a great day.
We know how the neocons stack up in world opinion, let alone the majority of Americans who realize the megalomaniacs are like a cancer.
Some people are legends in their own minds; unfortunately when in power they commit crimes that hurt too many people.
Dickheads dickering over necessary evils etc aside, public opinion seems to be a force, and if enough democratic peoples are in unison against perpetrators of illegal acts, the world is a better place.
matthewbenzor
Bush and Cheney's Regime is Next they can't escape from justice, "WHY" God is the true judge and He will bring them to justice...............!
when-the-whip-comes-down
It will never happen...
Our country is a failed state... The criminals are on the inside... using the government against us! Check it out:
http://vdare.com/roberts/091020_failed_states.htm
That article is by Paul Craig Roberts, undersecretary of the treasury during Ronald Regan's first term.
slmpirate
Thanks for the link wtwcd.
I regretably have to agree with your assessment. The boys of the last 8 years are never going to face any prosecution.
LeftCoastRightBrain
Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush and a Cheney on the side.
LOL!
Carole65
So, posters, would you say the CIA should be disbanded?
oldpunk
What the CIA caught smuggling drugs IN to America during Iran-Contra?
The CIA who gave false information about Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq?
Disbanded ?
That would break up the world's largest drug trafficking cartel ?
when-the-whip-comes-down
It would never happen...
the last time anybody tried to do that....
John Kennedy was assassinated.
larry278
Italy need not use any extraordinary means to get the convicted CIA employees to enter Italy to serve their sentences. Pizza is an American favorite. The CIA types could wander into a US pizza joint & be rendered to Italy via BA or pizza delivery drivers could take the CIA crud to an airport where a recycled DC 7 will take the CIA crud to Italy.
Pizza delivery cars wouldn't attract an attention in any American neighborhood. 10 or 14 pizza delivery cars could converge on each convicted CIA crud quietly & quickly; capture the convicted CIA crud, transport the CIA crud to an airport where a DC 7 or a Connie could transport the convicted, CIA, crud to Italy. Old prop planes are still used to transport live stock between nations.
Besides El Al used a prop plane to fly Eichmann to Israel. There is no need to use a Gulfstream to take the convicted, CIA, crud to Italy.
Housebird
Its a Jewish trait -- co-lateral damage -- no problem ---
The Israeli Revenge Team for the Munich Olympic massacre killed many innocent people in many different countries.
What you gona do about it ???
Israel and the US seem to be "above" the law.
.
This user is no longer registered.
LeftCoastRightBrain
What a moron. I just love the anti-Israel wing of the left.
That behavior is one of the reason I support Lieberman.
klausvseydlitz
I think that the new American 'pacifism' is 60 yrs too late. The hero of the American left, FDR, saw no problem in fighting my country, and had plans, carried out by his replacement, to starve millions of civilians after the wars end.
Here, now, the Americans finally did something right, going after a threat not only to America, but to the rest of us as well, and the same Americans who probably think FDR was so great, suddenly seem so determined to stop THIS fight.
As an officer in the Bundeswehr, preparing to go to Afghanistan to fight against the same threat, it worries me to see how Americans view this struggle, which was begun by them, after all.
Plantagenet
Guten Tag, Klaus:
Viel Glück in Afghanistan, mein deutscher Freund. Seien Sie sehr vorsichtig und schützen Sie sich von Schaden. Ich möchte zu vielen Dank und Ihre deutschen Kollegen für Ihre Tapferkeit und Bemühungen in Afghanistan.
whipmawhopma
klausvseydlitz - Yes, please stay safe.
jomama
Clearly the 'intelligence' communities foresight and foreknowledge of 9/11 (and of Russian missiles in Cuba) makes the infinitely qualified to be above the law. Oh wait a minute, that's right, they always fail when it counts!
Thank you.
As a first time user, your comment has been submitted for review. It can take anywhere from a few hours to a day or two for your comment to be reviewed, depending on the time of week and the volume of comments we receive.