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Scientology Defectors ‘Hunted Down’
Interrogation, intimidation, humiliation, spying, and manual labor are what awaits defectors from Scientology, reports The St. Petersburg Times in a fascinating investigation into the church’s inner workings. The article quotes interviews with several former high-ranking church officers and a husband and wife who tried to escape the grips of the controversial faith multiple times over nearly two decades. When members of the church of Scientology want to leave, they endure a process known as "routing out," a harrowing routine of manual labor and interrogations that can take up to months, according to former high-ranking Scientology officials. The other option, to "blow," or secretly escape, triggers a paranoid chase by church officials, wherein deserters are tracked down and coerced into returning when found. The obsessive nature of these searches began when current church leader David Miscavige took over for founder L. Ron Hubbard. Officials say Miscavige became concerned that former members would reveal secrets about the church. One member tried to escape by jumping into a truck only to be chased "for three hours, at speeds of up to 100 mph," according to one official. That member was eventually found and returned to the church.
matthewbenzor
Sounds like the Bush and Cheney regimes Gitmo...........!
nightdragon09
Matt... your statement makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, and is almost as idiotic as larry278's statement below. What the hell do Bush, Cheney and Gitmo have to do with Scientology? Or are those the only 3 words you have in your vocabulary?
I love how we have 2 major worldwide religions with hundreds of millions of followers (Islam and Scientology) that actively promote the persecution of those who leave their faith TODAY (as opposed to centuries ago when most of this type of moronic stuff was going on), yet all the loony liberals will find any excuse to spin it around and to rant and rave about the so-called Christian Taliban and how Christians are the most evil group of people in the world.
When was the last time a Christian killed their daughter for the horrific crime of "dishonoring the family" (because, you know, killing your own daughter DOESN'T bring dishonor to your family, right?)
RandyRose
http://www.stoppingthehate.com/News-Article1900_Exclusive_Interview_Nate_Ph elps_Estranged_Son_Of_Fred_Phelps_Interviewed_By_Meghan_Chavalier.htm
RandyRose
I found this one too:
http://www.thepoliticalcesspool.org/jamesedwards/2009/10/19/christians-t orture-murder-thousands-of-children/
RandyRose
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/james_haught/murder.html
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/5/21/171257/854
And, when you think about it, any religion that believes in an apocalypse, particularly one in which they will be saved, is not a species-promoting religion.
If a global catastrophe happens, how many Christians will do nothing, instead believing that Jesus is coming to take them up to Heaven?
RVGrandpa
Christians usually don't kill their daughters; instead, from what I've seen in the papers lately, they prefer to rape and murder neighbors' daughters. Taliban Christians is an excellent term.
Boyaca
The christians did a pretty good job on people who did not agree with them. Ever hear of the Inquisiton or closer to home the witch hunts in Salem ? Not to mention the Crusades. Islam and Scientology could learn a few things about violence from christians. I am absolutely positive that I would much sooner get my head cut off than be burned to death at the stake. And who were those guys who developed water boarding and stress positions if they were not chritians?
larry278
WTF, a confirmed bien pensant often can't get beyond CW & revealed wisdom. "nightdragon09" may never have spoken with homocide investigators as friened or worked in a hospital's emergency room. He/she/it probably has never seen the mangled corpse of a young woman who was killed because she dated or became pregnant with the aid of a man of whom her father said was not fit to associate with the girl's family.
Has nightdragon09 not heard of a Jewish family who disowned a child because the child got a ta2? How about the RC adult child who leaves the monestary, convent or holy orders? A family never tries to lay a guilt trip upon the former priest, monk, nun, never never, right? The religious superiors of the self freed person never hound anyone for the expense of keeping & educating the former nun, monk or priest. He/she/it never heard of a fervently Christian family trying to bring a backsliding Christian back to Jesus. He/she/it never has known of the orders of protection or injunctions forbidding a zealous Christian family or other fervent Christians from a former Christer?
Some Christer favored books say," None is so blind as the person[family, group] who refuses to see.". You will find similar words in the books Christers use.
All religions are lucerative businesses. Christianity is very lucerative.
Get your nose out of your navel, nightdragon! What you don't know, particularly what you don't want to know, may, or can, or will hurt you & your ilk. Your twisted distortions of CW are harmful & dangerous to all of human kind.
"nightdragon09" has no idea of why his/her/its revealed wisdom is reviled as anethema, base ignorant superstition & abject blind stupidity by the non-theistic or theists of religious persuasions which don't resemble his/her/its brand or received wisdom.
Christers who attempt to run down others who reject their notions can be a hoot like nightdragon09.
Christers who blindly cast aspersions at people who don't share Christer beliefs very often stumble in never ending battles of wit. Unarmed Christers such as nightdragon09, jomama, Brendimo(sic?), et al who act as official or self appointed apologists for Christianity are unarmed.
When reason vanquishes the non-sense of their arguments, they claim to have been martyered by their critics. Celtic Christians have a history of claiming & revering such defeats as a white martyrdom which allows them to continue to exist on earth & relentlessly spout complete non-sense.
The copulating Christian is a wonder.
nightdragon09
Holy shit! Did you forget to take your meds today or something Larry??? Get my nose out of my naval? WTF does that mean? Hows about you get your head out of your ass instead!
"Unarmed Christers such as nightdragon09, jomama, Brendimo(sic?), et al who act as official or self appointed apologists for Christianity are unarmed."
"unarmed Christers are unarmed"??? Wow, great observation there Larry... and in other obvious news today... "stupid comments are stupid"!
Dekrahs
HEADLINE: Parents plead guilty in faith-healing death.
Brendino
Whoa, Larry, are you really talking trash on me in another thread up here?
If I'm unarmed, then I find it interesting that you'd take ad hominem out of your apparent arsenal first. Why not talk about the issue at hand instead?
democracyforall
matthewbenzor, get over it, Bush is out of office, no more excuses!
larry278
Scientology reminds us of the history of Christianity. To be charitable Scientology & Christianity are dangerous, paranoid, paternalistic, obnoxious cults-on their good days. These cults don't have good days often, maybe once every 25 years.
jomama
Nonsense. Despite the so called progressive liberals attempts to spin history, Christianity - with all of it's faults - has been the spiritual fuel of enlightenment for 2000 years. Man is at the root of every fault of Christianity. Scientology, on the other hand, has only one purpose and that is to scam the world.
EtienneEtoile
It is interesting to note that the founding fathers were not christians.
Please explain what you mean by "spiritual fuel of enlightenment". (inquisition, Salem witch trials, slavery?)
"scam the world" Isn't that the purpose of every organized religion?
Brendino
@EtienneEtoile - Some were, some weren't. There's no point in polarizing that issue either way.
The Inquisition killed about 5,000, the Salem witch trials killed about 20. Though this is still too many, please don't equate Christianity's casualties with any other religion.
The purpose of pure Christianity is not to scam the world, but to save the people in it from eternal judgment. What men choose to do in the ranks of a religious organization may cause it to be poorly perceived, but the truth of the mission remains.
EtienneEtoile
Brendino - I believe my response was directed at jomama.
jomama's jab at "progressive liberals" was countered by the right's always claiming (spinning) that the US was founded on christianity. Bringing up "C"'s shortcomings, I listed a few, and in my mind one may wonder if the all bad stuff over 2000 years outweighs any good. I now nothing of Scientology but I am guessing that they do not believe they are a scam either.
And , did you mean "eternal damnation"? instead of "eternal judgement"?
kdj-kdj
Brendino... such a child-like mentality...
Religion is about the power to influence, PERIOD.
And you only lay 5,020 deaths at the doorstep of Christianity? That is a pathetic statement and degrading to those with brains to think. To try to pass that off is eerily similar to the meandering and wavering 'truths' that have changed many times over the thousands of years as science and reason have trumped ancient notions. And whenever it goes wrong it is NEVER the faith's reason... NO... it's the people. Thing is, faith IS THE PEOPLE.
Faith... the ultimate con and cop-out... "we don't know, so it must be so!"
Faith... belief beyond reason.
Faith... used by despots and tyrants for the attaining of power and ultimately killing off of those who will not be reigned in.
40,000,000 South, Central, and North American Indians can't be wrong!
Aloanstar
I think you have it backwards. Christianity is at the root of every fault of man. Many christians scam the world. It's just another form of brainwashing and you should never have to pay to believe.
The bible has been rewritten so many times, that no one really knows what it actually said...or if any of it is true.
It is a very questionable tale.
Personally, I don't need to pay someone else, nor have to believe in a certain religion to know what is right and wrong.
It serves it's purpose for people who feel they need it, but it should not rule the lives of those of us who do not.
Too many lives have been lost fighting over which religion is right or wrong. Whatever you believe in, just believe and feel good about yourself because of it. The whole world is not full of people just waiting to be converted.
Brendino
@EtinneEtoile - Ah, but much of the enlightened thinking that came from Deists, Christians, and even the secular folk were all heavily influenced by a dominant Christian worldview. That has to count for something.
If you go throughout history, you can find heaps of people and organizations that have benefited the world. Look at figures like Mother Theresa or Henry Durant, or go to a hospital that was founded by a Catholic, or even look at what the much maligned Rick Warren is trying to do with Rwanda. You can also look at cultural contributions...Bach signed each piece with "S.D.G." - To God alone be the glory. There's all the Renaissance artwork too, and so on.
However, I don't think Christianity's point is to put out cool artwork, its point is to save souls (Yes, from damnation. You're correct; everyone will be judged).I think that if the mission was different, we'd spend more time on worldly things. The balance between evangelism and social action has always been difficult to manage throughout church history.
larry278
I do hope that you have read the 1st 2 replies to your utterly baseless screed? Have you heard of the reform of Christianity by Luther, et al, the reasons why it was necessary to reform Christianity, the Inquisitition?
I infer that you believe that the universally reviled system of beliefs called Christianity is something called a revealed religion. I congratulate you on saying that man is at the root of every fault of Christianity since human beings, not a diety, created Christianity.
I infer that you a complacent Christer of some Christian sect such as the Copulating Christians [RCs, fundie, neocon{religious not near right wingnut persuasion}]. You accidentally allowed a mite of truth into your Christer screed when you allowed that man, aka humankind, is the author of all faults of Christianity including your defence of the inhuman faults of Christianity.
I have another question. Why do most, if not all sects of Christianity, persist in successfuly scamming the world?
Please read EtienneEtoile's response to your bigoted screed. Brendino's response which mentions the phantasm of "pure Christianity" & understimates the casualties of the Inquisition & implicitly states that Christianity was & remains evil, but not 'too' bad, pussy foots around the well known facts in the history of the mankind made system of belief called Christianity. All in all Christianity is a botched abortion of a myriad of patently absurd falsehoods.
Brendino
Wow. Let's take these one at a time.
@kdj-kdj - I don't lay only 5020 deaths down. These are just two examples thrown out there to try and say that Christianity is so bloody, but people rarely sit down and do a body count. As I said, this is still 5020 too many, but Muslim extremists did 60% as much damage in a day eight years ago.
Faith is not a copout. Are you willing to say that you are so enlightened and knowledgeable that you can have the answer to EVERYTHING? Tell me, then, how time works, or about the possibility of beings in a dimension above that. Tell me about the size of the universe and what lies beyond it. Christians are arrogant? At least we realize that we can't ever have every answer.
We all exercise faith in people and things. You just don't like some things that people put their faith into.
You're stating the point, but also missing it. If truth is truth, then yes! People can take faith and religion and manipulate it, but that simply doesn't invalidate the truth itself.
And are you really willing to tell me that 40 million Native Americans were killed solely for religious purposes, that it had nothing to do with large amounts of land?
Brendino
@Aloanstar - The New Testament is one of the best-preserved historical documents in history. 20,000 manuscripts, many of which date to within a generation of Christ on earth. If you believe Julius Caesar's account of the Gallic conquests, you're putting your faith in about ten manuscripts dating 1000 years after the event. Which would you trust more?
Truth is absolute, so picking a religion that makes you feel good is missing the point. If Christianity is true, and if Jesus Christ is "the way, the truth, and the life," then you can understand the urgency of our mission. You might not agree with the premise, but you should be able to understand the reason for our evangelism.
Brendino
@larry278 - What was baseless about my responses? Which facts are you challenging?
The Reformation was largely in response to plenary indulgences, not the Inquisition. And politics definitely helped to propagate the cause...the German states didn't want to be influenced politically by the pope.
Are you calling me a Roman Catholic and a right-wing Republican? Because I'm neither, so please stop the personal attacks.
And to answer your awfully loaded question, I don't see a scam. A 'scam' is largely equated with fraud (if you're using it differently, let me know), and fraud always intends for financial or personal gain. Any Christian I know (yes, even the pastors) aren't in it for the money...do you even know the average salary figures for pastors? Very few get rich off of Christianity, and just as few are trying to do so.
So can we lay off the vitriol here and talk more reasonably?
RandyRose
@Brendino: I had read recently that the estimated number of deaths in the crusades was in the millions. Also, what about the Christian persecution of Jews since the 1st century C.E.?
Many atrocities have been carried out by all religions. And, to play devil's advocate, many have been carried out for reasons having nothing to do with religion.
Brendino
@RandyRose - I really don't understand anti-Semitism, I really don't. To say that Jews killed Christ and use that to justify killing for two centuries just doesn't cut it for me; someone at some point had to say that the teachings of Paul and Jesus (both Jews themselves) clearly render this approach senseless. There has to be another reason for the hatred of Jews.
Crusade figures are hard to nail down. The only person documenting a battle might be a zealous historian who cannot be corroborated.
It's even harder to figure out what was purely religious and what was political, because there had to be different reasons, not only between crusades but even between the foot soldier and the general in a unit. If a common man who had no access to a Bible was told that he could have sins forgiven and be doing the will of God by fighting, and that war involved him leaving his feudal (futile?) life, then I can understand the man getting suckered. Shame on the priest who didn't speak the truth.
maggiezee
Larry says that "Christianity and Scientology are dangerous, paranoid, paternalistic, obnoxious cults" I would say,as I think jomama suggests, that maybe Christians are all those things but not necessarily Christianity. [I don't know anything about Scientology.]
Brendino says, "The purpose of pure Christianity is not to scam the world, but to save the people in it from eternal damnation."
I disagree. As one who has participated in and studied the Christian Faith, I see it as a way to live from day today, for example the beatitudes.. If "salvation" is a by-product of that, so be it.
I have gone the way of evangelism to the point of being a [not tele] evangelist.
I have reformed my ways and regret and repent of having attempted to force my way of thinking on anyone. This enables me to let you to think what you want about religion in general or a sect in specific. I would hope you give me the same privilege. Or is that a right?
I at present do not participate in Christianity in any overt religious way.
I continue to seek a way of life that works for me and I find the roots of that in Christianity.
"Live Peace" is my goal and motto and I believe it has Christian foundations though not exclusively. From the little I know of other beliefs, many also offer a way to "live peace". I choose to focus on biblical teachings I study in the so-called Christian Bible and glean from others as others may choose the reverse.
Peace be with you, unless of course you don't want it :).
pclayton
Like "god," christianity was created by man, so of course, man is at fault for all of its incomprehensible gobbledy-gook. Both have effectively scammed the world, in fact, the "older" of the two is responsible for just about every war ever fought.
pclayton
Oh, jomama:
You can Jimmy-Jones some of the people but you can't Jimmy-Jones me.
Boyaca
The Dark Ages were brought on by christians hunting down non believers and book burnings. Anyone disagreeing with christians were summarily put to death. The stench of burning hair and flesh hung over Europe for centuries. Islam is bad but not in the context of religion it is not. There is no such thing as a good religion. I suppose you never read of the Conquest of Central and South America in the name of Jesus Christ either. Fully 95 % of the former populations of those continents did not survive being saved there either.
Brendino
@boyaca - The "Dark Ages" (modern historians shy away from the term unless talking about Early Middle Ages, which ran up until about 1000 AD) was largely brought about by the collapse of the Roman Empire. Christians didn't help much, but it is noteworthy that the monasteries were the bastions of literacy and academia during that time. Some credit Irish monks as the only people who would have preserved ancient texts that are still known today.
Visit persecution.com to see who is mostly doing the killings and victimizing today. I don't know how the claim is backed with statistics, but this organization claimed that 150,000 Christians were martyred in 1999 alone.
Brendino
@maggiezee -
It is apparent that you have come up with a credo that makes you find fulfillment. But, you need to understand that that's nowhere close to what Jesus teaches.
Jesus never claimed to be just a good teacher. He claimed to be God in the flesh, the Messiah that would save humanity from damnation it had earned through its sin. He even said "No man comes to the Father but through me." These aren't easy words to embrace and live by - you think I want to say that Jesus is the only way to heaven? - but it's truth!
To the orthodox (lowercase O) Christian, religion isn't a buffet! You don't see the choices set out and pick one that looks tasty. I follow Jesus Christ, whose most important words to His followers were "Go, and make disciples of all nations..."
Truth is absolute, Maggie. This can't be true for me and not true for others. Either it's true for everyone, or Jesus was lying when He said those words.
If you have chosen to live your life as you have, that's your decision, and I pray that you would read the whole Bible and treat it all as trustworthy as the parts you like. But please don't call your brand of religion Christianity, because Christianity at its core is following Jesus Christ, who died on a cross for the sins of those who condemned him, who came back from the dead to set us free from the damnation we deserve, and who will return again to usher His own into eternal glory.
I don't like being heavy-handed, but I also don't like seeing Christianity misrepresented.
RandyRose
@Brendino: how do you infer that the words that Jesus supposedly spoke are truth? That statement alone undermines every argument you have made thus far. The texts which you read have been translated and rewritten so many times that there is no way to confirm that Jesus, if he even existed, ever said anything to that effect. Not to mention that the texts about him began to be written roughly 60 years after his death. The average person can't remember what they had for lunch... how can they remember something someone else said 60 years ago??
What you regard as the "book of truth" was really compiled during the Council of Nicaea in 325 C.E. - roughly 300 years after Jesus' death. Constantine called together a large group of "officials" and they hammered out the first "official christian bible." Many different groups were preaching different versions of Jesus' supposed doctrine with very conflicting views, thus Constantine saw the need for some kind of order. Or rather, some way to control the masses. The results were that things were changed, traditions were created, laws were enacted, and it was all labeled as christianity.
Many theologians and historians believe Jesus was born in the spring (almost all know he wasn't born on Dec. 25th); the Christmas tree is a pagan symbol; the story of water into wine was copied from the Greek cult of Mythras; virgin birth tales predate christianity by hundreds of years; the list goes on.
Brendino
@RandyRose -
Every modern translation has been compiled from the most reliable manuscripts possible. When you see dozens of English translations, don't think of it as A translated to B, which is translated to C. Think of it as B being translated from what we had of A, and C being translated from a better version of A.
Any serious variants in translations over the years have little to no effect on the core Gospel of Jesus Christ.
If Jesus died somewhere around AD 35, then most of the Bible was already written within 50 years. The destruction of the temple in AD 70 was a pivotal event, and a lot of stuff in the NT is written like that hadn't happened yet. I'm sorry I can't give you more specifics on how that works, but that's a bit outside of my expertise.
And to compare the death of your dearest mentor and friend and his subsequent resurrection from the dead with what you had for lunch? Hardly, sir. Some things you don't forget. And finally, if you have a God who is active enough to come to earth in human form, wouldn't He help out the writers' memories? I know people will dismiss that as a silly and unprovable argument, but to me it only makes sense that God is allowed to participate in His creation.
Here's the thing about Nicaea. Throughout the history of Catholic ecumenical councils, doctrines are only codified when they are challenged. Though a vast majority of the books that became the NT were already treated as inspired and circulated through churches, you started to have some of the Gnostic text creep in, and the church needed to formally settle once and for all what had largely already been decided. Research the development of the NT, you'll see that dates for assembled canons are much earlier than you'd think...definitely before Constantine.
Also, I don't think the Bible says anywhere that Jesus was born on 12/25. That's church tradition, which is different and not authoritative. The Christmas tree is not in the Bible, and most scholarship on Mithras is highly questionable. Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraic_Mysteries#Mithraism_and_Christianity (and note that most everything has sources cited).
The Bible holds up really well for being almost 2,000 years old.
PhilMcRoin
75,000,000 people slaughtered in the name of christianity in the western hemisphere in just a few hundred years.. complete genocide of the native people here.. all because they were unaware of Jesus who lived across an ocean... born into a completely different culture..
believe what you want, just don't deny your history.
Brendino
@PhilMcRoin - This was already mentioned. I have a tough time believing that you believe that every single casualty was directly done with purely religious motives, that it had nothing to do with large amounts of pristine land and treasures or political jockeying in Europe.
Read the book of Acts and see if those men would have killed those whom they had just met in an attempt to convert them. If anything, they would have been beaten and run out of town; it was kind of their thing. All this does is prove that religion is manipulated by those who want to pursue their own ends, not that Christianity is inherently flawed.
democracyforall
Scientology is a self-help book, "Dianetics", gone awry.
KateTheGreat
So true...if only more people would drag their heads out of their heinies it would be a better world~
Goddess711
Well said. All organized religions are brainwashing cults under different guises. There has to be a better way to feed the ego and have a social life than to join one.
namedujour
We just finished watching the Southpark episode about Scientology where Stan is revered as the reincarnation of L. Ron Hubbard. I think it's the episode that made Isaac Hayes quit as "Chef".
Very timely showing.
nightdragon09
Haha timely indeed, that's one of the best episodes in and outstanding series, and just one of the many reasons why I love South Park... they're not afraid to take on and skewer all sorts of otherwise PC topics, and they do so with hilarious results!
So far this new season has been excellent... far better than any of the other animated TV shows that have worn out their welcome years ago.
*cough* Simpsons *cough* Family Guy twice! *cough*
Desertpenguin
I mentioned this anecdote on the last Scientology article and I think it bears repeating.
My introduction to Scientology was from a guy who'd escaped and moved to another city.
He attained the rank of "clear", then decided it was all bs.
He told me Scientology put a murder contract out on him and he was very frightened.
I hope he escaped for good and put it all behind him.
PhilMcRoin
a freind of mine was a part of the Anonymous group that protested outside scientology churches and really pissed them off... everyone was to remain anomymous... he posted pics of the protest and himself in it on his myspace.. one month later he was dead.
ramper
Hey Larry 278, do you always make ridiculous comparisons like that?
larry278
Ramper, do you always jump to false conclusions in responding to comments which displease you? Cite the comparison which I've made which seem to be ridiculous to you.
mslewis
I don't understand!! These people don't live in a commune, do they? Aren't most, if not all, of them everyday working people? If so then why can't they just stop going to meetings/church/whatever? I didn't "ask" to leave my Baptist church, I just stopped going. Nobody came after me. If scientology is a "religion" and not a "cult" as they want us to believe, why do they have to chase after people who decide to give up this religion? Am I being to simplistic? Or, are these people really that dangerous?
DanKenton
Sure, it's a religion. They believe in goofy shit that makes most educated, upright-walking humans sick to their stomach. If it's not aliens invading your body, then it's talking snakes and virgins who get pregnant (you know a man penned that beaut). All so-called religions will offer plenty of comedy relief if you look deep enough.
missbike
ramper, go learn somehistory. A millenium of burning women, gays, Jews, and anyone else inconvenient alive says a lot about an organizations priorities. And don't forget the torture - Inquisition, excuse me. Etc., because there's plenty more.
mslewis you have been hiding under a rock! Scientology is that bad. Wanna know what the Sacred Secret is? The Mothership will come for all Scientologists in good standing. It hasn't been secret for years.
Poison Kool Aid, anyone?
Incidentally, L Rom Hubbard was diagnosed as a full blown delusional schizophrenic by the Army in the '40's. They hospitalized, then finally discharged him. repeated brushes with psychiatry account for Scientology's aversion to it. L Ron made his woes dogma.
So if you ever looked at Dienetics and couldn't understand it now you know why. The delusional rantings of a mad man.
LookintoDelight
Even his famous followers don't wanna talk about the science fiction stuff.
Sorry celebs you gotta take the whole package.
What are you? One of those Smorgasbord Scientologists?
crymeariver
How is that different from Mormons who believe that the become gods when they die and rule over their own planet?
Johnnyappleseed
What does this have to do about the mormons, I have never heard of them chasing people down and bringing them back like those in the Scientology religion.
Someone once said a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, your statement certainly qualifies you for that.
kdj-kdj
And that Jesus and Satan are brothers competing for the souls of man... all with the approval of their father, who is the god of THIS planet (alone).
LookintoDelight
Or believing in Heaven and Hell, duh?
Brendino
@missbike - we could compare death tolls if you'd like. Catholics in the Inquisition = about 5000 deaths. Stalin (an atheist, right?) in the USSR = about 10 million?
I guarantee that even if you count the Crusades (which were one, influenced by Muslim ideology anyways, and two, very political as well as religious), the death toll of Christians is, though still inexcusably high, is nowhere close to Islam or atheist leaders.
EtienneEtoile
Brenino - You are hereby appointed defense advocate for christianity, at the following link are the charges against christianity, please defend against the charges....
http://notachristian.org/christianatrocities.html
BTW, Atheism is not a religion
kdj-kdj
40,000,000.
KateTheGreat
I just love how bible-thumpers trot out Stalin and Hitler whenever they are confronted by rational beings who point out that religion is ridiculous...and what's up with lumping Islam in there with your so-called atheists?
Hitler and Stalin did not want anyone/anything competing with their cult-of-personality regimes...they set themselves up as living-godheads/dictators - so, in essence they were NOT atheists. The definition of atheist is someone who believes in self-determination, does not recognize external, unprovable, mystical powers or beings that take the place of reason, thought, debate, and science.
Brendino
That's a muddle of information, but I think in order to straighten things out, you'd have to separate strictly religious death tolls and ones that could have had political motives. An example listed is the Chmielnitzki massacre, which was a part of a larger happening - Ukranian revolution against Poland. Religion had a part in it, but there were a lot of politics as well.
After separating political and religious (which would be tough to do), you'd then have to look at the figures stated. This is a site that isn't going to go with the conservative figures. An example listed is the Battle of Askalon, where the site claims 200,000 Fatimid deaths. Perpetuating the estimation of a perhaps overly zealous Christian, sure. But estimates will almost certainly fail to even get you to 30,000 deaths. To quote the bigger figure is akin to saying that 300 Spartans fought off 1 million Persians (as cool as that sounds, it's not true).
Finally, the institution of a religion can absolutely be used for evil purposes, but that doesn't nullify the legitimacy of the tenets behind the religion. Romans 11 pretty clearly supports the fact that the Jews came first and were to be respected over the Gentiles...Paul states that the Gentiles were included in salvation partly to make the Jews jealous! But if people want to kill Jews, they'll find justification in Scripture. If people want to enslave other people, they'll make up some drivel about Ham being cursed. If they want to pollute the earth irresponsibly, they'll talk about the command to fill the earth and subdue it. Godly things in the hands of men can be bad, but if truth is truth, then that doesn't matter.
As a side note, check out persecution.com and see who's on the receiving end of most of the killings today.
Has Christianity messed up? Absolutely. If Achan's one sin (Joshua 7) could cause the entire nation of Israel to lose a battle, then Christians deserve a lot of the criticism and futility that we face when we reach out to people. But this atrocity list is biased and inaccurate, and would probably thus be weak evidence in a courtroom.
PhilMcRoin
Brendino..
are you going to include the 75,000,000 indigenous north and south americans? I think you should rethink your argument.
Brendino
@PhilMcRoin - I also responded in a previous thread. The Europeans didn't find the New World because they were sailing after Jesus; they wanted a new trade route. When they came, they found treasure and land, and technologically backwards nations of Native Americans. Sure, men could use religion to unite and inspire, but I don't see "for the glory of God" as cause number one to kill some Indians. Even when the Europeans fought, they certainly didn't expect to kill as many as they did. They could not have foreseen the devastating effect of smallpox and the like. Even if they came in the name of nothing, deaths by disease would have happened, just maybe not as deliberately.
LookintoDelight
This story makes no sense,
unless Scientologists live in Russia, on isolated communes.
This couldn't possibly happen in America or even France.
And I doubt een Russia.
kdj-kdj
And your opinion is why Scientologists have been so successful.
SandraZ8122
Does that mean Tom Cruise can't leave either? I mean think of the publicity that would make if he tried to leave and they hunted him down.
This is ridiculous, shut Scientology down this is not a legitimate church, they are just evading taxes.
kdj-kdj
ALL churches are tax evaders.
PhilMcRoin
it's a pyramid scam
BipartisanCurious
So let's be clear about these infantile "escapees" who are forced to return to the church:
They are tracked down and spoken to. They willingly answer the knock at the door and invite the Scientologists in. They allow themselves to be convinced to return.
If we're going to call these people victims, we also have to call them weak-willed, subservient and emotionally needy.
kdj-kdj
If you think all they do is 'talk' to them, I suggest researching more.
If not wanting to learn about things not in your immediate sphere of influence, then STFU.
BipartisanCurious
You must chill! I read the article, maybe you should have as well.
PhilMcRoin
this article is all you read? and you made a statement like that? ok.. well then.. I guess you have it all down pat..
BipartisanCurious
Hey I'm open to some reinforced criticism: what was done to these wimps besides them getting talked to by church henchmen that they invited into their living rooms? Finally, to make the assumption that I don't know anything is quite an illogical leap. I actually know quite a bit, just ask me!
Make an actual point besides the fact that you don't like mine or, in kdj's words, stfu!
PhilMcRoin
have you read the other posts here? I already did what you asked.. actually i posted the response to the question you just asked last night.. I guess either I am clairvoyant or you are not paying attention.
I just find it silly for you to develop such strong opinions and pass judgment on people based on one stupid article..
in the future maybe you should take kdj's advice and stfu, i think she was giving out some much needed constructive criticism.. it might help keep you from looking stupid.
BipartisanCurious
Haha, yes Phil I went and looked up your crazy post about how your friend got killed and you blame the Scientologists.
Do I sound judgemental when I call Scientologists and former Scientologists weak-willed, infantile and emotionally needy? Oh and subservient? Yes! Yes, indeed I am being judgemental.
The real question at hand, however, is if I'm right or not. All I know is that I hang up on telemarketers and shut the door on jesus freaks. If need be I'll beat them if they cross the line. But will I get dragged back to something I should've never joined in the first place? Nah, sorry.
Bring some proof of your claim that Scientology is a murderous cult and I'll be in full of support of raining hell down upon them. Until then all I can do is laugh at the sad comedy that is Scientology and those that can't find the will to escape it.
writerforhire
This same tactics are used in war and throughout organized modern religions. The worst violators: The Modern Christian Church.
In NYC alone there are more than one evangelical churches that use the same tactics as described and worse. The incorporate Mob tactics in securing silence for their criminal enterprises including leveraging police officers who (and corruption is rampant and widespread everywhere; we would be blind not to admit that it exists) have unresolved religious beliefs, are paid handsomely (weekly) for their cover-up efforts and have slid slowly down the ladder into a single corrupt state where they are now leveraged into darker criminal activities. They put on the uniform daily to shield their criminal activity.
The church uses sex bait, the church provides every type of vice, as vice rules over nice (every time), male and female, kids too, all money crimes, (don't you know how much it cost to run an inner city church) corporate crimes, street crimes, violent crimes, attempted murder, rape, (every church needs a marketing niche, a ministry, what better than a population of abused, batter, hurt women who hear it from a survivor) and those crimes will never see the prosecutor's office (because you can't prosecute the pastor). If the case makes it to detective the cop controller either takes the case, drops a name or pays. It's a simple shell game.
The leader of this enterprise coerces a civilian population through intimidation and coercion into committing violent crime. This, under the New York State Penal Code, is terrorism. The criminal enterprise, if it were led by someone of Italian ancestry would be considered Mafia; as it is it is simply retaliation for high net worth potential, pursuing justice, talent, having greater wisdom and biblical knowledge and being female.
MWaterman
What an ironic name, "writerforhire!" You are a terrible writer. If you want to be hired, try taking a basic English composition class to clear up your grammatical issues. Then try a basic philosophy class to help you with your logical fallacies. If being a writer is your dream you will need to work on the basics first. Sorry, but someone needed to let you know.
RandyRose
That's rich! But, hey, sometimes the truth hurts.
You remind me of me.
SimonSaize
Scientology is a serious business- I had an experience where they tried to audit me on the street in New York after speaking with me for 5 minutes- FIVE- they wanted to know of my personal relations and business- it creeped me out. Chrisitans do the same thing with different tactics- they tell you to give in and lose whatever it is that is a problem, otherwise you could go to hell. The problem is however is that God created this mess, I don't feel like answering to the fuck up any further- and to add I don't believe in Satan- those who do, put some sort of faith into it. They of course will tell you otherwise and have an answer for everything.
Sandflea
All religions are based on belief systems that lack any factual support and that makes them very problematic.
SimonSaize
I think religion is a benefit to a great many persons, but the ideology and practices which exclude or discriminate, intrude or dictate are problematic. I think people with problems bring them to religions and thus the religions then get the problems- sometimes those "problems" surface or manifest in different forms and comes out also in manifestations (elsewhere)- the basis of most religions is pure. If you study the history of religion and why it is used, often times it was a form of government because they did not have control over the populations ( back then), take Christianity as an example it made rules claimed God sent them and then used that to dictate what people could do- it also led to corruption- why? Because the people who made up the rules knew what they were doing and then used it against others and went insane, they had no morals...and when they did they were so ego driven by their own proclamations they couldn't grasp others perceptions or beliefs.Pious.
Fact.
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