Donald Trump has a long track record of defending the indefensible—but this is something else. In a taped interview with Jonathan Karl of ABC News, the former president sympathized with the Jan. 6 rioters who chanted “Hang Mike Pence!” as they marauded around the Capitol building. In a recording of the interview shared with Axios, Trump was asked if he was ever concerned for his vice president’s safety during the riot. “No, I thought he was well-protected, and I had heard that he was in good shape,” replied the ex-president. Karl went on to ask about “those chants” and Trump responded: “Well, the people were very angry.” Karl replied: “They were saying ‘Hang Mike Pence.’” Trump responded: “Because it’s common sense, Jon. It’s common sense that you’re supposed to protect... How can you pass on a fraudulent vote to Congress?” The interview took place in March for Karl’s book, Betrayal, which is released next Tuesday.