A Vatican official has leaked astonishing details of a “bullying,” “agressive,” and “tense” meeting between a group of Trump officials and the Pope’s personal representative in the U.S.
The official spoke to respected Catholic outlet The Pillar after the revelation that one of Pete Hegseth’s top deputies, and a group of retainers, had confronted Cardinal Christophe Pierre, the Vatican’s ambassador to the U.S. after Pope Leo XIV made a speech widely interpreted as an attack on Donald Trump.
The meeting took place at the Pentagon in January, led by Elbridge “Bridge” Colby, the Under Secretary of State for Defense, who is a Catholic, through their shared anti-NATO views, of Catholic convert Vice President JD Vance.
The existence of the meeting was first disclosed by MAGA-curious outlet The Free Press, which said that Colby told the cardinal that the United States has the military power to do “whatever it wants,” and that Pope Leo, the first American-born pontiff, “better take its side.” Then, The Free Press reported, one U.S. official “went so far as to invoke the Avignon Papacy.” This was when, in the 1300s, France used its dominant military to force the papacy to move to Provence, and fall in line with the French king’s desires.
The explosive story prompted consternation inside Trump circles, with a frenzied attempt to deny a crisis in relations with the Catholic church, and particularly the first American pope.
But that effort fell apart within 24 hours as Colby himself confirmed the existence of the meeting by posting photos of it, and The Pillar published an account which made clear how difficult the meeting had been.
It quoted a “senior official in Rome” who called the meeting “tense” and said U.S. officials had been “aggressive” and “bullying.” During the meeting, the cardinal had been “making himself heard, too,” the official said.
A source close to Pope Leo also told NBC Chicago that the meeting between the Pentagon and Pierre was “most unpleasant and confrontational.”
Those accounts clashed significantly with the Trump administration’s multiple attempts to downplay the meeting. Among those was a statement on Thursday by the U.S. embassy to the Vatican, which appeared to attempt to place words in Cardinal Pierre’s mouth, after he refused to comment.
It said that Pierre had met Trump’s ambassador to the Holy See, Brian Burch, and claimed, “The Cardinal emphatically denied the media’s portrayal of his meeting with Colby. He described the meeting as ‘frank, but very cordial’ and a ‘normal encounter,’” the statement said. “He confirmed that the reporting ‘does not reflect what happened’ and was ‘just invented to make a story.’” Curiously, the cardinal and the Vatican have made no such public statement.
The Defense Department described the meeting as “substantive, respectful, and professional.”
“During the cordial meeting, they discussed a range of topics, including issues of morality in foreign policy, the logic of the U.S. National Security Strategy, Europe, Africa, Latin America, and other topics,” it said in a statement. “Cardinal Pierre expressed his appreciation for the outreach and both sides looked forward to continued open and respectful dialogue.”
“In light of grossly false and distorted recent reporting, the Department of War repeats its statement: Recent reporting of the meeting is highly exaggerated and distorted. The meeting between Pentagon and Vatican officials was a respectful and reasonable discussion. We have nothing but the highest regard and welcome continued dialogue with the Holy See,” it added.
However, an official briefed The Pillar that there had been “a frank exchange of ideas,” and also said that officials had wanted to discuss “the concept of just war and the nature and scope of legitimate military action.” Catholic doctrine allows war in restricted circumstances of self-defense.
The Pillar said it was unable to confirm the reference to the Avignon papacy.
Tensions between the Vatican and the Trump administration have been simmering since the Chicago-born, Villanova-educated cardinal Robert Prevost rose to the papacy.
On Tuesday, Leo told reporters that President Donald Trump’s threat to wipe out an entire civilization was “truly unacceptable” and could breach international law.
“Let’s remember especially the innocent, the children, the elderly, the sick, so many people who have already become or will become victims of this continued warfare. To remind all that attacks on civilian infrastructure is against international law, but that it is also a sign of the hatred, the division, the destruction that human being is capable of, and we all want to work for peace,” he said.
The cardinal, who has retired as ambassador—or Papal Nuncio—is however, being thrust into the spotlight on Saturday, when he will preach at a prayer vigil for peace in Washington D.C., which was ordered by the Pope.
