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The Truth About Abortion
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Pro-life extremists imagine a country awash in abortions, but they are in fact much harder to procure than most people realize. Eric Alterman reveals the truth about abortions in America.
The Obama M.O. is to speak conspicuously respectfully of one’s opponents in order to preserve the illusion of bipartisanship, or even, potentially, consensus, in the absence of the real thing. But there can be no illusions about the violent sliver of the antiabortion movement that helped cause the murder of Dr. George Tiller, an OB-GYN who performed late-term abortions, and that refuses to condemn the act. Whatever one thinks about the issue of abortion itself—and my own views are quite conflicted—we can at least agree that the people who agree to perform these fully lawful acts are entitled to be protected against acts of domestic terrorism that threaten their lives. So too the women who, for whatever reason, feel they have no choice but to avail themselves of these doctors’ services.
If one merely imbibes the media coverage of the issue, one tends to get the impression that America is awash in abortions. The truth is that in most places in the United States abortions are technically legal, but they are often nearly impossible to obtain. A mere 13 percent of counties in the nation now offer the service.
Medicaid funding has restricted abortions for low-income women for nearly 30 years, and 11 states now restrict abortion coverage in insurance plans for public employees.
The state of Mississippi, for instance, home to nearly 3 million people, has a single abortion clinic. Meanwhile, the state’s counseling provisions also require that patients be told that abortion may increase the risk of breast cancer, despite the fact that the National Cancer Institute, the British medical journal the Lancet, and faculty members of Harvard Medical School have found no such link. Mississippi is also one of only two states that require a minor to get the consent of both parents to have an abortion (though if the minor has been impregnated by her father, she needs only the consent of her mother). Not surprisingly, it boasts the highest teen birth rate in America, which continues to increase, including, particularly, girls under the age of 15.
Mississippi may appear to be an extreme example, but it is not unusual: As of the end of 2005, it came in at eighth place on the honor roll of states that “defend life,” according to the rankings of the pro-life organization Americans United for Life. Elsewhere in America, Medicaid funding has restricted abortions for low-income women for nearly 30 years, and 11 states now restrict abortion coverage in insurance plans for public employees. Forty-three states require parental consent or notice before a minor obtains an abortion. Thirty-one states demand that women receive “counseling” before an abortion, and 18 offer it only in a misleading and frequently inaccurate form designed to scare them into changing their minds. Six states insist that this “counseling” be provided in person, ensuring at least two visits to the clinic.
(The purposeful lying done under the name of “abstinence education” in American schools is no help, either. European young people are about as active sexually as Americans, but they are not lied to about contraception in school. Teenage American girls are seven times as likely as French girls to have an abortion, for instance.)
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Jacob Bernstein is a senior reporter at The Daily Beast. Previously, he was a features writer at WWD and W Magazine. He has also written for New York magazine, Paper, and The Huffington Post.
What's Joe's Problem?
Lloyd Grove is editor at large for The Daily Beast. He is also a frequent contributor to New York magazine and was a contributing editor for Condé Nast Portfolio. He wrote a gossip column for the New York Daily News from 2003 to 2006. Prior to that, he wrote the Reliable Source column for the Washington Post, where he spent 23 years covering politics, the media, and other subjects.
Geithner's Stock Plummeting
Jeff Madrick is a contributor to the New York Review of Books and a former economics columnist for the New York Times. He is editor of Challenge Magazine, visiting professor of humanities at Cooper Union, and senior fellow at the New School's Schwartz Center for Economic Policy Analysis. He is the author of Taking America, The End of Affluence (Random House) and The Case for Big Government.
Why Democrats Are Smiling
Eric Alterman is a professor of English and journalism at Brooklyn College and a professor of journalism at CUNY Graduate School of Journalism. He is the author, most recently, of Why We're Liberals: A Handbook for Restoring America's Important Ideals.
The Speech of His Life—Again
Eric Alterman is a professor of English and journalism at Brooklyn College and a professor of journalism at CUNY Graduate School of Journalism. He is the author, most recently, of Why We're Liberals: A Handbook for Restoring America's Important Ideals.
How E.L. Doctorow Does It
Eric Alterman is a professor of English and journalism at Brooklyn College and a professor of journalism at CUNY Graduate School of Journalism. He is the author, most recently, of Why We're Liberals: A Handbook for Restoring America's Important Ideals.
Mr. Alterman, what would you have the President do?
Also, I don't trust your stats. Not that they're wrong, but you use words like "limit". You use "13% of counties". What a weird statistic. Why use counties? Seems natural that a small percentage of counties would have such services. In MS you use birth rate without referencing "pregnancy rate" which is the immediate question that comes to my mind.
As for Ashcroft, we can certainly agree he was a pox on the land, but someone should be collecting anonymous stats on abortion or else all the talk about limiting the need for abortion is just lip service. You can't understand what you can't measure.
I'm pretty far left of center, but I don't think your article helps advance the debate a millimeter.
Cheers.
Abortion hurts women.
I tell you what Pricklypear, I'll consent to outlawing abortion on the same day that it becomes illegal for the father of the unborn baby to walk away and shirk the responsibility of helping to provide emotionally and financially for the child. Men don't have to have a procedure, they simply walk away and deny responsibility.
You've no argument from me on that. We agree.
Yes, it does. A great number of things hurt people. We let people decide for themselves which risks to take and which decisions they can live with.
Now let us decide for ourselves, like grownups who really care about each other.
You stupid fucking moron.
You hurt women
pricklypear,
Amend to read:
You, and your anti-choice rhetoric hurt women. There is no doubt about it.
If people want Abortion to be a safe and resonable means of murdering the unborn then move it into hospitals, provide it for those victims of molest, incest and rape, after a full police report has been filed. Make it seam at least a service to help the innocent. Until that happens there will be those who will desire to avenge all the innocent lives taken! What do you think the military is doing in IRAQ? Right or wrong?
The pro-abortion activists have to make the moral case for keeping abortion legal and stop hiding behind the notion of "rights," "choice," and legalisms. They need to categorically state that the life of the mother is more important than the death of both the mother and the baby in such instances. They need to speak about the implications of an unwanted child being born, often into inadequate socioeconomic circumstance, but more important, an inadequate social environment. Yes, abortion is a women's rights issue, but it is so much more.
Why don't we all try to be civil and deal with this like grownups who really care about each other.
Agree completely. We need to find areas of common ground, then go from that to discuss ways to reduce the number of abortions. If we don't, then the "ban all abortion" people do their thing, the "abortion anytime" people do theirs, and we wind up with 35 more years of no progress.
I think that's what BHO was driving at at Notre Dame, and I think reasonable people should take this cue. I really don't mean this as a provocative statement to pricklypear or anyone else.
That we are still debating this hurts women. It kills doctors. 13 counties in the whole US? Why is a 'conflicted' male even writing this article? Women should and will make this decision themselves. Wear your rubbers if you get lucky and then butt out.
And you aren't no pear, just a prick.
there just should be more scrutiny involved where abortion is dealt with on a case by case basis,so that it is never just for the sake of convenience but in cases such as yours where there is an obvious mental defect, or probable in-breeding there should be some leeway. you imbecile
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It is wrong to kill abortion doctors, obviously.
you are an IMBECILE
Women have the right to choose, but doctors like Tiller who gleely performed and continue to perform late term abortions by drilling a hole in the back of baby skulls to drain all the life out of them.. need to rethink the process.
Sorry, your blanket condemnation disqualifies your first statement.
BasPos - you're wrong. Doctors who for whatever reasons, profit, business, decide to perform more than 60,000 late term abortions need to rethink the process.
Women have a right to choose - but let's hope they make educated choices.
Sempronia - you think "government healthcare" will prevent late term abortions? Now, I know exactly your motive.. government healthcare.. are the taxpayers paying your mortgage, too?
Jack, I'd like to see a source for the number of 60K late term abortions, because I don't believe it.
Late-term abortions are not sought lightly -- they are performed on women who actually wanted children but, for whatever medical reason, now had their lives threatened by the pregnancy. There's nothing "gleeful" about that. It's an incredibly painful decision for women who otherwise wanted to become mothers, and people like Dr. Tiller made it possible for them to save themselves and their families in a manner that was as safe and comfortable as possible.
You want to reduce abortions? Proper contraception and education. But for the patients who went to see Dr. Tiller, this is an entirely different issue -- there must be safe and effective healthcare in this country for women who have to choose between their own lives and their pregnancies!
Seriously -- educate yourself!
You're exactly right - doctors who have performed, inclucing Tiller more than 60,000 late term abortions and did so to profit and suggests his "gleeful - casual approach" was just fine. It is the doctor's process in which is shameful - and women need to rise up and make better choices - educate themselves. It's curious why K Sebulieus didn't do more to help educate women or at least these quack doctors.
Sure, there are cases where women need to make a last minute decision but you don't have a prayer to convince an audience that Tiller's 60,000 fetuses (not mention other abortion performers) were all women "who suddenly" changed their minds.
Seriously - educate yourself Sempronia!
JackJack
Let me just show you this quote
"He cited a WaTimes estimate that the doctor had performed "over 60,000 abortions" in his career, which spanned 35 years.
That works out to almost 2,000 per year. That six per day. Every day of the year. If you look at just traditional working days, we're talking TEN per day.
That's a pretty rigorous schedule, don't you think? maybe even a tad unrealistic. But that's okay; if you're Bildo, you don't need to make sense, you just need to rile up your "base"."
Do you realize that the number 60.000 is a flat out right wing nutjob lie?
Jack, nobody "gleely performed" late term abortions. Why don't you go do some real research as to why these pregnancies that were wanted and after much heartfelt thought and consideration had to be terminated. Most of the fetuses would not have live outside of the mother's womb or the mother's life was at risk.
this is where it gets foggy for me. how do you do this "research" on late term abortions? issues of privacy make the data unverifiable. still if someone has a suggestion for a reliable source please offer. one more point, it's none of my damned business if someone is aborting an nonviable mass of cells. on the other hand, if tiller's death is my business then so is a baby who would have been born viable as any other baby but had the misfortune of having it's brains sucked out that day even though the mother's life was not in danger. maybe that never happens and maybe murders never occur either.
Do you even know how many 'late-term' abortions Dr. Tiller performed, or what the MEDICAL reasons for performing them were? Have you bothered to find out what percentage of the abortions Dr. Tiller performed were 'late-term'? I, for one, (and I am the mother of 5, grandmother of 12 and great-grandmother of 3) wouldn't have hesitated to terminate a pregnancy if my life had been threatened, or if the fetus I was carrying had no chance at life after birth. And I could support and encourage any of my daughters-in-law or granddaughters in the same decision.
you have a perfectly reasonable attitude to those of us without the weight of fundamentalist religious beliefs directing our opinions. but there is a hole in our safety net for fellow human beings who may be expended for questionable medical reasons. the fact that a second opinion is required on late term abortions is itself subject to abuse.
JackJack-
What if the woman is having the late term abortion because the baby didn't develop a skull in the first place and would die within months of birth?
What if the woman's life is threatened by carrying the pregnancy to term?
You are obviously speaking from a place of uninformed ignorance and have never had to deal with this difficult question either personally or through any of your close friends and family. Personally I hope you never have to deal with it as it's not something I'd wish on even the most horrible of persons.
What I do hope is that people in your position will make even the slightest attempt to see past their own narrow ideology, inform and educate themselves and try to have even the slightest compassion for their fellow human beings.
I know a woman whose second child died as a fetus, and she was forced to carry the fetus for a week, if I remember correctly. She kind of knew the fetus was dead, and it made her an emotional basketcase.
Don't know if it's true, but I think that banning late term abortions requires this sort of thing.
Nice try putting words into my mouth. You said the thing about health care -- and quite frankly, bring it on. It's better than this idiotic, tyrannical system we have now.
As for Tiller, he would have rejected women who "suddenly changed their minds" -- the point is to provide safe healthcare for women for whom childbirth has become a mortal risk! We aren't talking about women who made sudden, stupid decisions. This is about real life needs, not ideological drivel.
But if you want to talk about the majority of abortions, maybe if the government wasn't wasting money pushing useless "abstinence only" sex ed, and giving girls real-life facts, there would not be anymore abortions.
Of course, it all begs the question of why I'm even talking to you? You seem so awash in puritanical ideology that there isn't any room for discussion! My mortgage? Please? I'm too busy working for the government to subsidize my education.
If we did a decent job with sex education in this country we wouldn't have nearly as many abortions. The whole point is to avoid unwanted pregnancies, not terminate them.
This event is unforgivable.
I as a man know, (unless the child is half mine) that I should just sit down and be quiet. I'd love to have this voted on one final time. But only by women of child bearing years...
But we all know the sad truth about why sex education is such a no no right? The religious right is stuck in the middle ages when it comes to sex. You're not supposed to like it. You're not supposed to desire it. You're not supposed to have it outside of marriage. To make matters worse, even after you're married you're still only supposed to do it in order to "be fruitfula nd multiply". The basic message is to submit to your husband and allow him to "roll on top of you and do his business". Is it really 2009? I almost feel like I'm supposed to be wearing a corset and using a horse and buggy to take me to the mercantile. Jeesh.
You are exaggerating. I sense your frustration, though. Sex has its place. And when it is within a committed marriage, it is best. There is more to life than shucking off you clothes and getting it on with another. Don't get me wrong, human sexual, 'erotic' love is one of the BEST things in life, especially with the one you've picked to be your one and only. When we ask people to abstain it is because the extra-marital sex can deliver other problems and misery. When we tell people to keep sex special, we must encourage them to replace that impulse with other good things like getting an education, developing your mind, your talent, helping others.
So is it fact or not that late term abortions are to save the mothers life?Do the pro life activist at least agree that to save the mothers life it is ok?I am uneducated on this fact.
Sometimes the fetuses are only still living because it is connected to the mother. There are some conditions where the brain, skull, or even some vital organs were never formed and the fetus would die soon after it was born. In those cases, how can you ask a woman to continue carrying the fetus to term? If after knowing that the fetus has such grave defects, and if the woman is forced to carry it to term, she will have to keep enduring the well intended wishes and comments of people around her while knowing that the baby is just on life support with no chance of recovering. What hell it must be for someone who really wanted this pregnancy (which most of these late term abortions were) to have to go through.
The mother's survival is paramount. I do not know how the medical professionals make that decision.
I wish that it were confined to that, but most anti-abortion activists (I am not one but question abortion) don't stop there. Many pro-lifers want to also ban contraception, and their agenda goes back to womens' role as being kept "barefoot and pregnant."
At least that's what the strong pro-choice people will tell you. So where does it stand? If we all knew, then the decision to deal with this issue wouldn't be so difficult. But as with all zealots, both sides obscure the issue with extremism.
Abortion is leagal and will stay so.
I ask those on the "Pro LIfe" side, where is / was your outrage as babies were dying in Iraq with your tax dollars?, where was your outrage when kids were / are getting hacked to death in Darfur?, where is your outrage about the G.O.P. cutting social services to the poor who have kids and babies?, where is your outrage over the declining health of the planet?.
When your rage is focused on the fetus and stem cells but the living can die by the tens of thousands I dont buy your empathy......
Women should and will have control over their own bodies.
I agree there are many reasons to be outraged. It means you have a heart when you recognize suffering in Iraq, Darfur, and some places in America. But, instead of giving up on everything, pick something you can do to make things better. Do something that makes a positive difference.
If that is the case then Conservatives are equally outraged @ Bush for the Iraq war?.
Yes, muddog, if you recall there many conservatives who thought it was wrong to start the war in Iraq. The Holy father, Pope John Paul II openly discouraged Bush from this unjustified war in Iraq.
This article paints pro-life advocates with the broad brush of extremism - shame on the author for misrepresenting a large portion of the American population.I am anti-abortion and let me tell you, it's shootings like this that make me angry. It runs contrary to the platform of MOST pro-life groups. I'll admit that there are extreme fringe groups...but please, let's not assume that now just because one is pro-life, they are suddenly a domestic terrorist.
Ella, here is where you can help to get Pro-life advocates from being painted with one broad stroke. Go tell your other pro-life advocates to start speaking out against people like O'Reilly and to denounce their tactics. It hurts your cause and image when abortion doctors and others who work on women's health issues are violently attacked. Unfortunately, the fringe are very vocal and violent, especially on the right. Constructive dialogues on reducing unwanted pregnancies and developing programs to deal with adoptions if an unwanted pregnancy was carried to term, and similar programs coming from pro-life groups will be a positive step to helping their cause instead of focusing on the religious aspects or when is it a life arguments (those arguments will not work on pro-choice people). Like Pres. Obama said during his speech at Notre Dame, there are issues that both sides will never agree on but we can find some commonality and work together towards a goal such as reducing abortions.
Adoption, of course is an option. However, being pregnant is quite expensive. How is a teenager in high school supposed to pay for medical bills, proper nutrition, vitamins? Sadly, in some cases abortion is the only option because of the high expense of carrying pregnancy to term. I think there needs to be a better system for women and girls who choose adoption.
Yesterday a muslim convert gunned down two soldiers outside a recruiting office in Arkansas. He killed one and wounded the other -- apparently out of his hatred for the U.S. military. It makes no more sense to characterize Americans who oppose abortions as "supporting terrorism" because of the despicable act of one deranged individual than it would to characterize the act of the muslim killer in Arkansas as characterizing the attitude of muslims as supporting terrorism. Surely anyone is as entitled to believe that the doctor was engaged in a despicable undertaking as they might be to believe that the American military is engaged in a despicable undertaking. And everyone is entitled to the presumption that their beliefs do not constitute approval of terrorism unless their actions indicate otherwise.
I have no sympathy here. Your movement does nothing to oust the so called "fringe," and only now does it feign outrage to soften the backlash from the sane. Where were all these supposed voices of reason before Tiller was killed? That's right, they kept quiet and just winked and nodded.
Get off the fence and stop pretending Tiller's death was such a surprise to you. The language of the Pro Life movement has made this a predictable outcome. If you honestly believe abortion is murder then murdering a "mass murderer" probably makes perfect sense in your whacked out head. Reconciliation with the "other side" is just as likely for al Qaeda as it is for Pro Lifers; both groups are rabid with zealotry.
http://www.aheartbreakingchoice.com/index.html
http://www.amazon.com/Our-Heartbreaking-Choices-Interrupting-Much-Wanted /dp/0595530478
Most late term abortions are a tragedy where a couple is faced with a wrenching decision regarding a baby they wanted. May those of you who are so condeming never be faced with such a terrible situation.
"Gloria Gonzalez, who learned that the twins she was carrying were gravely ill and threatening her own health. "As a Christian and a married woman who desperately wanted a child, I'd never given much thought to abortion. Like many others, I assumed that only women with unwanted pregnancies had the procedure." Yet after she and her husband consulted with several doctors and their pastor, "We knew what we had to do. Letting the girls die on their own didn't seem like an option, because we believed they were suffering while endangering my own health."
http://www.barryyeoman.com/articles/gina.html
http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/feature/2009/06/01/late_term_abortio n/index.html
Watch for the line wrap on the Salon URL
www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/feature/2009/06/01/late_term_abortio/index. html
I agree with what Muddog says.
Although I would not get an abortion myself, that is my personal oppinion and I have no right to force it on someone else. If you don't approve of abortion, then don't ever get one ! However, the option should be there.
Those anti-sex education/abstinence only proponents seem to believe that the Wages of Sin (i.e., having sex) are pregnancy, at least for the woman (or girl). Pregnancy carries the risk, however small (thanks to modern medicine) of death only for the woman. And far too many men don't consider the possibility of pregnancy, because they won't have to deal with the consequences of the pregnancy. Abortion law, because it only applies to women, should be MADE by women. I believe that it was Gloria Steinem, many years ago, who said that if men got pregnant, abortion would be a Sacrament.
Lest face it, it's easy for the wingnut base to tell others what to do. They scream "Pro Life" and then support war mongering thugs like Cheney and Bush.
The same "Pro Life" crowd does not mind that the G.O.P Consistantly votes against the poor and for the rich, how many kids and ababies have paid a price for inadequate health care?.
Spare me the pro life stance, if a living beathing child is less important than a stem cell or fetus you have no morals.
If there is suffering and we fail to alleviate it, then be quiet about any of it. You have an all or nothing argument. I agree, there are many kids who are hungry and ill-educated in this country. Maybe you could help an underprivileged family in you community. Tutor a child. Give a scholarship to a needy student.
Find a charity who are doing great things for those in need. Give a helping hand. You will bring some joy into your life and someone else.
I disagree about "the wages of sin" part. I don't get that vibe from the pro-life section of our population. Pro-life means all human life is sacred. That is why the murder of Dr. Tiller is wrong. Taking a life to get my way is wrong.
I think pro-life people think we should protect the most vulnerable, those who cannot speak for themselves, the unborn.
I think it is convenient to wrap it up in the guise of "a woman's right to choose". It let's the man off the hook. And it gets rid of "unwanted children" who might put a "burden" on the earth, on society. In many cases women feel they have no choice other than abortion.
I just want to make it more likely and acceptable for women and men to Choose life.
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Does domestic terrorism include the Muslim who killed one US soldier and wounded another in Little Rock yesterday? Or the other Muslim terrorists who terrorized the Washington DC area for 3 weeks in 2002, killing 11 and critically wounding 3?
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It helps a lot. The tragedy of Katrina, thanks for reminding me btw, is an example of government not doing its best for the people it represents. According to an evacuation plan drawn up in the wake of a simulated Category 3 Hurricane (Pam) in July of 2004, the state of Louisiana and the city of New Orleans were clearly not prepared to evacuate their citizens when Katrina struck. Under the disaster plan, preparations for the storm should have begun at least three days before it made landfall. With Katrina, New Orleans ordered a mandatory evacuation 20 hours before the storm struck. FEMA officials were supposed to have critical resources in place before landfall. (That would be the federal government's fault). Though city and state government authorities were primarily responsible for evacuating people, the disaster plan notes that Louisiana "had identified a shortage in resources required to evacuate and support shelters." (that would be the city and the state's fault). Long known as an American murder capital, New Orleans also has the highest rate of overall crime in the country. It's interesting to compare these urban cities when faced with disaster with areas of the mid-west ravaged by snow and rain catastrophes. No looting and violence in those parts. Hmph? Wonder why?
It his motive was to spread terror--which I think it was--then yes, you can call him a terrorist. No different then the men who were arrested in New York recently.
Personally, I think the fear of domestic terrorism is the work of over-active liberal imaginations right now, though surely once in a while those fears are justified. It's the left-wing parallel to some conservatives who see terrorists in any and every Muslim who dislikes the United States for its foreign policies.
Folks, abortion is a procedure invented by a Nazi to keep "mudpeople" from populating. Pretty racist don't you think? Check out the origin.
Abortion provides superior rights to one over another, unless you don't believe that you are killing a baby. You can rationalize it all you want, but without proactive steps to remove the fetus, a baby will be born, and abortion gives a woman superior rights and power over the baby, period.
The discussion can be debated, but the process remains.
It is a very sad day when the rights of the weak are pushed aside for the rights of the strong.
Think about that, and then remember your decision when the system comes for you.
Bull$#!Abortion has been around since prehistorical times.
"Religious texts
Tertullian, a 2nd and 3rd century Christian theologian, also described surgical implements which were used in a procedure similar to the modern dilation and evacuation. One tool had a "nicely-adjusted flexible frame" used for dilation, an "annular blade" used to curette, and a "blunted or covered hook" used for extraction. The other was a "copper needle or spike". He attributed ownership of such items to Hippocrates, Asclepiades, Erasistratus, Herophilus, and Soranus.[20]
Tertullian's description is prefaced as being used in cases in which abnormal positioning of the fetus in the womb would endanger the life of the pregnant women. Saint Augustine, in Enchiridion, makes passing mention of surgical procedures being performed to remove fetuses which have expired in utero.[21] Aulus Cornelius Celsus, a 1st century Roman encyclopedist, offers an extremely detailed account of a procedure to extract an already dead fetus in his only surviving work, De Medicina.[22]
In Book 9 of Refutation of all Heresies, Hippolytus of Rome, another Christian theologian of the 3rd century, wrote of women tightly binding themselves around the middle so as to "expel what was being conceived."[23]" Wiki
It was accepted amongst your christian predecessors for centuries. It wasn't until recent history that religious *men* decided they had to control women completely.
Bull$#! ! Abortion has been practiced since prehistoric times. Check Wiki.
It wasn't until recent times that christian *men* have felt the need to control women to this extent.
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It's fair to assume that the vast majority of anti-abortion rights people are appalled by this horrific act of violence, however there are still far too many who are secretly celebrating. We are a nation of laws, and murdering a man while he's in a church is an abomination from every conceivable point of view.
it just hit me! man, am i slow! we, all of us, are herds of the suspicious. one side suspects the other side is secretly celebrating tiller's death and the other side suspects not all those late term abortions are for health problems of the mother or the child. what's real?
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doesn't matter everyone agrees that shooting someone is cold blood murder.
on the other hand only a few people believe that abortion is murder.
On the Law one is illegal(shooting someone to death) and the other is legal(abortion), guess which one Pro-life are celebrating.
Really good point!
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People like "Wanting" are exactly whats wrong with America. You people condemn the torture of muslim animals that are terroist but cry for a baby killer. Men and Women should be accountable for the actions. Birth control works and because your to damn stupid to use it you must kill a baby. This is why America is going to the dogs on the Obama express!
jeez that's harsh. but it's ugly if a human (aka baby) is offed for no other reason that it's inconvenient. but really bad if it's late term ie really here but we don't want to face it. some stuff is just ugly. i don't know what else to say.
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Why is anyone surprised at one more example of the American lynch mob justice system. The same sun rotates around the flat earth bible thumpers advocate killing doctors who provide medical services for women and denying gay and lesbian Americans equal rights. When the lynch mob comes for you, who will be there to stand up for you?
C'mon folks---we have largely been keeping this discussion on a courteous, respectful level. Let's try to keep doing so.
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Most of the preceding discussion has been about facts and opinions regarding abortion, and it has indeed been kept on a fairly reasonable level, especially for such an emotional issue.
Nobody disagrees with the fact that the killing of Dr. Tiller was horrible and stupid. But that's not what this discussion has been about.
Anyone who believes that the radical leaders who manipulate disturbed individuals into committing violence give a d**m about the unborn, is delusional. Their only concern is power, money and followers. They are the equivalent to Jim Jones. They believe they have the right to impose their will onto others. The suffer from delusions of entitlement.
It is, however, a mistake to brand all or even the majority of those who oppose abortion to these domestic terrorist. What I have learned over time is that intelligent, rational people when faced with the prospect of an unwanted pregnancy that will alter the coarse of their own life develop a change of attitude regardless of the choice they make about their own personal situation. They are less judgemental. They are far less certain about their right to make life altering decisions for other people. They acquire a new compassion. They recognize that until their own values were tested, they did not fully know what their values were.
It is not unlike many of the rigid right wing politicians that no longer oppose gay marriage. Perpectives change when issues become personal. It's different when it is your child, your sibling, your parent.
You should not lump all pro-life (or anti-abortion) people with this one crazed gunman. Just like all Muslims should not be lumped in with the countless terrorist atrocities being committed everyday by other Muslims.
I have some personal knowledge about the early days of Right to Life in MS. My brother was at one time many years ago the president. He and his wife were intelligent, college educated, law abiding, devote but rational young adults. The longer their involvement continued the more obsessive and less rational they became. This was before the violence and clinic bombing etc., but they excused deceptive practices, theft, surrying around like rats going through garbage cans outside of the offices of M D who performed legal abortions, etc. He pushed the envolope too far when as a law enforcement officer, he showed up in uniform at a protest. He came to his senses, more or less, and chose his job over his cause. Shortly, after he passed the reins over to his second in command, an executive with a serious RX drug habit supplied by his physician wife, was asked to sever his relationship with Right to Life due to his advocacy of violence. He promptly joined a more militant group, lost his executive position, and devoted his full time between rehab to harassing abortion clinics. The last time I saw him, his hygiene was poor and from his appearance you would assume that he was homeless.
In both cases, my bother's and his second in command, the need to be right over ruled sane behavior. There is a cult environment in the prolife movement that alters the cognitive processing of once rational people. It isn't healthy and it is dangerous.
The time to consider your moral feelings about abortion is PRIOR to having unprotected sex. Women seeking abortions must also think about what if this single pregnancy is the ONLY one they will have in their lives? It was a dilemma for me at 15 years old/almost 16. Today is my wonderful sons birthday. He is an executive, a kind compassionate loving human being who is a wonderful Dad. He is my only child, & had been born 2 months - early at a mere 3 lbs. He thrived!
Thank you.
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