Giving Beast
More Giving BeastJohn Legend: Bill Maher, You're Wrong on Education
by John Legend
Recording artist, concert performer, and philanthropist John Legend has won six Grammy awards and was named one of Time magazine’s 100 most influential people. In 2007, John Legend launched the Show Me Campaign (ShowMeCampaign.org), an initiative that uses education to break the cycle of poverty. He is a co-chair of the Harlem Village Academies Founder’s Council, an advisory board for a group of charter schools in New York City.
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In a Daily Beast exclusive, John Legend responds to Bill Maher’s recent attack on the president's education policies, and explains why he believes bad teachers—not parents—are at fault when kids fail.
In a monologue Friday night, HBO Real Time host Bill Maher criticized President Barack Obama’s decision to support a Rhode Island superintendent who fired every single teacher at a failing high school, forcing them to reapply to their jobs. “New Rule: Let's not fire the teachers when students don't learn—let's fire the parents,” Maher said, arguing that teachers are scapegoats for the failings of society. “Isn't it convenient that once again it turns out that the problem isn't us, and the fix is something that doesn't require us to change our behavior or spend any money?” he asked, alleging, “According to all the studies, it doesn't matter what teachers do.”
Now, in a Daily Beast exclusive, education philanthropist, singer, and longtime Obama supporter John Legend is hitting back, alleging that Maher—on whose show he has appeared—fundamentally misunderstands the issue.
Hey Bill,
You know I deeply respect you and the issues you cover. I’m a big fan of your show. I really enjoy being a guest there and would love to be invited back sometime. Now, I’m hoping this letter won’t close the door to that.
So, from one man without children to another, I think you were pretty off base in your closing monologue about education on Friday.
We should not be afraid to say that some well-meaning individuals are simply not effective teachers. If a teacher cannot help students learn, he or she shouldn’t be teaching.
You were right about some things: Parental involvement really matters. Parents should turn off the TV, encourage reading, talk with their kids about their day, help with their homework, hold them accountable, and get involved in their education.
However, a child’s academic success does not only depend on parenting. Parents control what happens at home. But parents do not control what happens at school where students spend a large portion of their day being educated. Parents don’t determine whether the books are woefully out of date, whether the school and surrounding neighborhood are safe, whether there are too many kids in the classroom, and whether the teacher leading the classroom knows what they are doing. Individual parents can’t always influence those factors, especially when they themselves may be struggling in poverty or working double shifts just to make ends meet.
It's up to us as a society to make sure our schools are doing their part. From a public-policy perspective, we have much more ability to affect school and teacher quality than parent quality. And it is absolutely appropriate for the president and Education Secretary Arne Duncan to be intently focused on doing just that.
For a very long time, the U.S. education system led the world in almost every measure. We used to be in first place in graduation rates. But, by 2006, we had slipped to 18th in high-school graduation rates and 14th for college completion. Our national high-school dropout rate is a shameful 30 percent and is much worse for minority and low-income students; for African Americans and Hispanics, it’s about 50 percent. Simply put, our schools are not serving the needs of a lot of students. Our students (and our country) deserve better.
Many of those students in poorly performing schools have great parents who are very concerned about their children’s future. I’ve seen parents who are distraught when their kids don’t get into the only good school in their neighborhood. These parents cry when their kids don’t win the local “school lottery.” And, yes, the schools actually have to use lottery machines to ensure the applicants are chosen at random. Imagine a kid watching a little ball rolling around in the drum, his or her future being determined by the luck of the draw. Most of those good schools that families vie to get into accept only 10 to 20 percent of the kids who apply. So it seems to me that we have more concerned parents looking for decent education opportunities for their kids than the reverse.
Bill, I’m glad you’re sticking up for teachers. There are world-class teachers everywhere who deserve more credit and better pay. They aren't to blame for much of what’s wrong with our schools. But we do know that having a quality teacher in every classroom is the single most important tool we can use to improve student learning. It can override other challenges in a way that no other factor can.
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Rebecca Dana is a senior correspondent for The Daily Beast. A former editor and reporter for The Wall Street Journal, she has also written for The New York Times, The New York Observer, Rolling Stone, and Slate, among other publications.
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Recording artist, concert performer, and philanthropist John Legend has won six Grammy awards and was named one of Time magazine’s 100 most influential people. In 2007, John Legend launched the Show Me Campaign (ShowMeCampaign.org), an initiative that uses education to break the cycle of poverty. He is a co-chair of the Harlem Village Academies Founder’s Council, an advisory board for a group of charter schools in New York City.
Veda12
Mr. Legend, please read my book, "African Americans and Standardized Tests: The Real Reason for Low Test Scores." Please join The 2000 Book Movement (on Facebook). The goal of The 2000 Book Movement is to increase academic achievement.
case1234
Bill has never stood face to face with a teacher who you knew couldn't give a flying crap about teaching or the students in her class. I have. It is not an encouraging feeling.
Read Super Freakonomics regarding teachers in America. Basically we need to pay more (a lot more) and we will get better teachers and better results.
What is odd about Bill M's statement was in the past he was highly critical of the teachers unions.. Obama has been hard on them... to the delight of conservatives like David Brooks. Now Bill says the teachers are off the hook???
lisaDi
I agree with you case 1234.
There are some really terrible teachers even in Canada. I do believe that there are no incentives to promote teaching as a rewarding career or to attract INTELLIGENT candidates. The smart graduates would rather go to neurosciences or nuclear engineering than handle a class of 30 unrully children.
Humans beings want to make a difference and be validated.
The U.S. is not alone with the education problem. Al least President Obama does want to do something, we're still puching the dirt under the rug.
adlerman
case1234
You could have used a few good teachers if you think Bill said teachers are off the hook. Mr. Legend said he disagreed with Bill but his response was not that different than Bill's. Bill said there were bad teachers but to say that every teacher in a school full of indigent students is bad- is crazy.
You can't look at scores and get the full picture. Illegal immigrants travel up and down the country during harvest season and their kids are in and out of school up and down the coast- Most kids only hear spanish at home so they're already handicapped in school- changing schools 3-4 times a year doesn't help. So figure out a way to grade the teachers- have someone grade their presentation- not the students scores.
aackc1
case... I agree with you enitrely. I love Barry btw... The bankers fail, we bail them out! The auto industry fails, we bail them out! The education system is failing, let's fire everyone! Just wow! You surprise me everyday, Barry!
xlntcat
In the best of schools, about 5% to 10% of the teachers are excellent and 5% to 10% need to find a new profession. Eighty percent fall within the mean but incentive to improve is low. You could probably cite similar stats in all occupation but firing all the teachers did get national attention. While we were comatose, over the past 20 years the U S fell from first in education to 23rd, one slot above Mexico. Make no mistake about it, you cannot have a prosperous nation with a poorly educated population.
DeaconDrJones
At my 8 year old's school there are a lot of poor minority kids and a shrinking number of well-to-do, middle class whites. Every teacher she has had impressed me with their dedication, kindness, and persistence. Yet, white parents keep pulling their kids out and the teachers get the blame for any troubled students. I volunteer there and I see how it is. Most of the poor kids have NO guidance at home and a hand full in each class are an ongoing problem that can not be resolved in the classroom. I agree with Bill and can't find anything in this article that clearly states why I shouldn't. I know many teachers, both in my family and friends, and a lot the ones who really care are leaving because they are constantly under fire from angry parents and squeezed harder and harder by administrations that can cater only to pressure from those parents. Perhaps I'm just lucky, but I think a sense of entitlement mixed with laziness by parents are at least as big a problem as bad teachers. How about this, we all find some time to volunteer at our kid's schools. Maybe we all need a bit more vacation time so we can do it. Volunteering at my daughter's school has been one of the most rewarding and frustrating, experiences of my adult life. I know her class so well now that I feel right at home talking with any of the other kids and teachers.
Phillip Banks
Yet another reason to love John Legend!
joejames219
Hope it's not his views on education. Legend simplifies the situation to the point where one feels that he is uneducated himself on what really ails public education - lack of discipline at home that carries over into the classroom, and whole communities that do not value education. I taught in a rural district where the majority of parents showed up for parent/teacher conferences and volunteer their services in projects outside the classroom. Meanwhile, in the urban district where I now teach, less that 10% of the parents show up for critical conferences and volunteerism is nil. I've seen highly qualifed teachers become frustrated because of their lack of success in urban districts only to become outstanding teachers where there is a classroom full of students eager to learn, not dare the teacher to try and teach. Thanks Bill - someone who finally stands up to the politicians and tells the truth.
sashanka
but doesn't economics and geography help explain part of this? It seems to me that in urban areas low paying jobs require commuting by public transport and often leave parents unable to volunteer for projects outside classroom. When I lived and worked in NYC everyone in the office stayed late, worked hard, leaving at 5 was not the norm. My officemates often lived 45 minutes to an hour away via public transport.
In rural areas, I live in one now, people leave at 5, competition, opportunity, and income are less, but more people leave at 5 (or it's equivalent). At least in my experience. And unfortunately (environmentally), everyone has to drive, often reducing commuting time.
Truly I believe parental exhaustion and discouragement/depression, lack of encouragement, wages that have stayed stagnant while wealth has grown has more to do with it than parents being to blame because they are bad people. If you could loose your job or not make enough to buy food because you have not put in enough hours because you have to go run a volunteer school event, you might not choose to volunteer. If someone feels ignorant and scared around schools because they themselves failed out, and the school does not offer some understanding or outreach, why would someone volunteer to feel that shame, remorse, anger? or try to help?
I think the regular person in America is exhausted, trying to stay afloat, not being paid enough and living in an economy in which the difference between the highest paid and the lowest paid is too great. It makes for depression and unhappiness and lack of motivation. This makes it hard to do it all.
FarLeftFist
Parents-Make sure your kids do their homework and pass their tests, school is not a baby-sitting session.
Teachers-Get more involved with your students, don't just show up to work for a paycheck.
Pres. Obama-Overhaul the school system to give parents and teachers more say in how their children get educated.
10EC Larry
Pres. Obama- Leave education the hell alone. Let the states and local governments do it, and let the federal government stick to what it does best- screwing up Social Security, Medicare, medicaid, the Post Office and the economy.
StateoftheInitiative
"Let the states and local governments do it"
Except that's not how it really works.
mibwilso
State and local control is great....except when your state/local folks are incompetent and your district can't afford to pay enough to hire someone good.
xlntcat
One good look at teabaggers should be enough to alert the nation to the low level our education system has sunk. When Americans are spending 125% of earnings and saving nothing, you have strong evidence of financial illiteracy. When 88% do not know they got a tax cut that indicates that they were unaware of the net earning. You cannot make a budget when you are oblivious regarding your own income much less live within one. We left education along for the past 20 years in our race to the bottom. We are lagging behind other nations across the board. We lead only in consumption of goods and services and obesity. The biggest state in the nation is own the verge of becoming a failed state which doesn't speak well for the health or the ability of states to do much well.
blue553
You will be sure to say "no" to federal dollars for education--right?
JFKDem
We just had a glimpse in Texas of what happens when there are not national guidelines/standards for the entire country. They make new textbooks and indoctrinate the kids so that they can influence their political leanings in the future. Disgusting.
butterfly03
DEFINITELY DO NOT LET THE STATES AND LOCAL GOVT DO IT. For far too long the states discriminated and provided unequal education to many. We do not need to go back to that failure. While it may have been beneficial to white Americans, it grossly failed black Americans. States have shown in the past to be too polarizing for success. I applaud the President's efforts to overhaul education, it's long overdue.
leftistmenace
This problem is much too large and complicated for any one group to be at fault. There is plenty of blame to spread around between the teachers, parents, and the students.
butterfly03
Agreed!
musicwms
"Parents don't determine whether the books are woefully out of date, whether the school and surrounding neighborhood are safe, whether there are too many kids in the classroom,"
And neither do teachers control any of those factors.
But I am expected to be accountable for the learning of my students in spite of the above conditions and oh so many more which are out of my control.
So when my state cuts funding for my district and my district cuts funding for professional development, supplies, textbooks, and teachers; when my school has to cut teaching positions and raise class sizes, when there aren't enough seats for my students to sit in in my freezing or hot or leaky classroom, or enough textbooks for each child to use; and my students fall behind, I should be fired?
I am a music teacher, Mr. Legend, and you are a musician. Think how successful you would be with a piano with broken keys, singing in a concert where the sound system only works intermittently, and your audience has been told they must sit in the broken chairs and listen to your music even though they don't like your style of music.
TFTeacher
Sorry John but you are wrong.
The research leaves out all kinds of variables, making the results pretty much moot.
Teachers have to take all the kids they get, unlike charter schools. If you want teachers to socialize kids, then say so. But please remember the parents do have a responsibility to socialize their kids so they can be in school and be successful. It's not a one-way thing.
And please, no more childless folks chiming in unless they have been inside a suffering school for a bit.
Why is it nobody wants to believe teachers?
mibwilso
I am a teacher myself...and I think John is correct. We have much more direct control over what kind of pay we offer teachers....we have much more control over who we hire to teach....and we have much more control over how teachers are trained.
We can't however, pass a law to require people to be good parents.
So, I agree with John. Let's focus on the things we CAN control.
smkmn13
By firing all the teachers?
I think Bill's point was just that there is something unhealthy and non-productive about our continued attitude of "point the finger," rather than addressing the real issue -- we have a large number of children who come to school every day with no intention of learning. They're children, and they need to be taught correctly, but the idea that a child's learning is dependent on the teacher more than the child him or herself (or the parents, who raised that child) contributes to an attitude that makes it worldly more difficult to instruct!
StateoftheInitiative
Without bashing educators, I am curious to know if/what is the requirement for teachers to maintain their license? How does the average teacher on an AVERAGE salary stay current in education? Not just techniques, but the knowledge itself. Or does one just get their degree and they are set?
I'm not one to say "throw money at a problem", but I'd be willing wager that if the average teacher ,or better yet a school district, got paid like an MLB player, we wouldn't be having this severe of a problem
sophia5
" what is the requirement for teachers to maintain their license " ?
The "requirement for teachers to maintain their license" involves joining the Union ?
Is it a coincidence that the states with the most entitlements, or Union
"influence," are the very states in the BIGGEST trouble ? California, Michigan ?
Obamacare will be another entitlement power grab for unions . . . SEIU.
Another huge Government Disaster on the horizon.
xlntcat
That only applies to states that have unions. Requirements vary from state to state but my profession requires a minimum 15 hours continuing education annually following 10 years of undergraduate and graduate work. Teacher should have continuing education requirements also.
nortonclybourn
Not just the SEIU, but ACORN! They are organized groups with lots of BLACK PEOPLE! WAKE UP TO THE MENACE!
DeaconDrJones
We can always count on you, Sophia5, to totally, blindly, right-wing it up. Thanks again for the crap sandwich.
TFTeacher
States determine credentialing. Unions have nothing to do with credentialing.
All teachers, in CA at least, must be credentialed by the state to teach in a public school (I think it's the same for all states). It's private schools that don't require a teacher to have a credential. And home-schooling parents obviously don't need a credential, but must abide by some state rules.
Here is California's Commission on Credentialing site:
http://www.ctc.ca.gov/
So, now what?
Amazon
So, what do you do for a living, Sophia? I'm a music teacher, and compared to "core" teachers, I have it easy. Here are my requirements: The principal and the superintendent walk in whenever they want, and I get observed and served a 5 page analysis formally twice a year at minimum (if the walk-ins went well), which determines my future employment. I have to take 10 credits every so many years in order to keep me current. I don't have to teach to a standardized test or get those results back every year.
Still, I stay after at least an hour every day to help with tutoring for those tests. I think about my students constantly. Of course, I'm one of those oddballs that wish I got walked in on in my classroom more often, and I would welcome achievement based pay for teachers. My salary is being cut after spending my first year teaching building an entire K-12 music program from outdated and broken materials and a pep band from nothing. I would rather have my salary be contingent on my performance than on the state's decision to cut education, which ultimately means cutting the paychecks of those at the bottom of the system (me).
And yes, I will keep teaching anyway. It's who I am. And that money that should have gone to my paycheck may now be going towards suing the government to repeal the healthcare of my 50% below poverty line students. Thank you from Idaho for your well researched and thoughtful opinion.
al-nafs
Is it just me, or do they look like they are related? Seriously, look at the stock photos here, Bill Maher and John Legend kinda look like long lost brothers.
Mrs.Missus
@StateoftheInitiative- I'm a certified teacher in the state of Georgia. I'm not currently teaching, but I do keep up my teaching certificate just in case. I am required to complete 6 credit hours of college level courses or obtain a certain number of professional learning units that can be earned through inservices and other trainings. Although I'm sure Georgia's not a great example of a state that really keeps up with education...
I really have to disagree with Mr. Legend, though. I do think that teachers should be held accountable. Standardized test scores are not the way to do that.
eze666
They're both wrong and they're both right, and this is way too complicated to be dealt with in sound-bite or even several-paragraph essay format. What's wrong with Obama's plan is that like NCLB before it, it wants to base teacher salaries and tenure on test scores. These tests only really assess how good students are at taking standardized tests, not actual knowledge.
The sky isn't falling, but especially in the big cities, we're cheating our minority and poor students every day, and churning out teachers who spend 1 to 5 years in the system, burn out, and leave. Without real training and support, which is rare in a public school struggling with everything from infrastructure problems to students who are years behind grade level when they show up for class, where will these quality teachers come from?
This problem isn't going away. I don't know what the answer is, but it's not charter schools and de-unionization. It's not more tests. It's not firing the parents. And it's not anything that has passed through Arne Duncan's or Michelle Rhee's head over the past few years. I like Obama, but in this case he should leave it alone because this is one issue on which he has proven to be clueless.
johnstafford
When it comes to the debate over public education, sometimes the grown-ups can be more childish than the students: why does anyone have to be "at fault"?
=Can't we at least all agree that most teachers, parents, school administrators, school board members, etc. have good intentions? So, if things aren't going well, perhaps the "fault" lies in the system, not in the personnel.
=There are lots of problems in our complex public education system, not the least of which is its "public" mandate.
Can you think of any other enterprise that has, as its criterion, the sucess of all its participants? In baseball, "stars" only make "out" 2 out of 3 times.
=Public schools must, by law, serve the bright, the not-so-bright, and "slow learners"; as well as students for whom English is a second language, the learning disabled and the physically handicapped. Unlike, private schools (the favorite venue for the offspring of the wealthy and of many of the politicians who make a living out of criticizing public education), public schools must accept, and are expected to educate, all students.
=Of course, such an overwhelming responsibility costs money, lots of it. And, if there's a "fault" involved, it's the denial of this obvious fact by so many. Does anyone think it's a coincidence that the highly-praised schools in Scarsdale, New York, for example, spend more than 3 times per pupil what is spent in nearby New York City?
=But, raising money for good public schools often means raising taxes, and what politician, or taxpayer, wants to hear that? So, instead, we get no-cost gimmicks, like "school choice," "vourchers" and "charter schools" that force already underfunded public schools to "compete" with one another for ever-smaller pieces of the education budget pie.
=Why is it that everyone agrees that "you get what you pay for," except when it comes to public schools?
MaeQueen
It's nice to know that Mr. Legend lives in the land of Illusion, where one sector of the professional population (TEACHERS) strives every day to educate children in the midst of the blame-game.
Everyone wants to blame the teacher - it seems so easy, after all, who else has direct interaction?
Well - gee, let's see...ah, yes THE PARENTS, THE CHURCH, THE COMMUNITY, THEIR PEERS, THE INTERNET, CELEBRITIES, etc.
Of al the above, the PARENTS have the most influence. Sadly, most are either working or overwhelmed by health, unemployment, and personal problems.
We teachers CANNOT take the place of parents, even though the educational system, the administrators, and the parents themselves wish it to be so.
But, like Mr. Legend, wishing and blaming doesn't make it so.
Go back to what you appear to know best, Mr. Legend, that of being an ENTERTAINER.
raymondo324
hey maequeen i can't agree with you more. as a parent of seven sucessful children i know that thier education STARTS WITH THE PARENT. because of the social problems associated with the public school system my wife and i chose to home school our kids. this social problem was not as the result of what the teachers sent home from school but what the parents sent to school (undisaplined children). the parents knew more about what was happening on Oprah , Jerry Springer ,and Lost then what was going on in thier kids lives.i have seen my neighbors get irate when the teachers send home a note describing a problem. they then drag the child down to the teacher and berate the teacher for not being able to DO THIER JOB. so what has the kid learned ? TRASH THE TEACHER !!! mom and dad are going to believe them over the teacher every time . the parent wants to be thier childs best friend. well all i have to say about that is NOT IN MY WORLD .the only relationship i had with my kids was one called PARENT! it is my job to feed, cloth, house ,disapline, educate and prepare them to set out into the world and be productive citizens and parents in thier own right. after thirty years of parenting do you know what i have ? a VEEP a Pastor a business owner a homemaker a PR manager a model and a musician that just might give mr legend a run for his money. do you know what i got? i got seven adults that call me on a weekly basis to thank me for teaching them some lesson that helped them achive a goal or overcome an obstical in thier life. so in a sence you might say i am thier best friend. to you the teacher all i can say is push on . there are some parents who will back you with thier kids and you will make a difference in thier lives . to you teachers i say thank you .
That Girl At The Party
Congratulations on raising 7 great kids and taking personal responsibility for your family's future! We need more men like you having kids instead of these baby boys who leave the raising of their kids to baby girl mothers! Now if you could only learn to spell! LOL
unintent
The general consensus here seems to be: "It's a complicated problem." That is why it is essential for the federal government to get out of education. Who can administer better? Fifty states administrating 50 state programs or one big federal government trying to run all 50 states? When did American scholastic achievement start to lower? When states took less of a role and the government took more?
This is a good example why socialism always fails. You can't have one person controlling the lives of millions of people, but you can have millions of people controlling their own lives. Millions of brains are better than one...every time. And the best person who knows whats best for you or your child is you. And two heads are better than one and that is why children who have TWO parents EXCEL compared to single parent children.
I do also believe that most of school districts with high drop out rates are plagued by single parent families. Don't have kids, unless you can raise them. This usually means getting married and having a job.
xlntcat
My GOP governor cut funds to schools 4 times in the past year and now has cut back the number of days of required attendance for the next school year. Find a red state with a GOP governor and you will find similar results. The dumbing down of Americans is beneficial to politicians who want to manipulate the masses.
eze666
unintent,
Yes, it's a complicated problem, and no, it's got nothing whatsoever to do with socialism. Japan has a nationalized school system, and last I heard, they're not socialists. We've never had a nationalized school system in the United States for a number of reasons, and I agree that, in general, communities can govern themselves better than distant governments with cookie-cutter solutions.
However, it's not a mandate on socialism. Your suggestion for educating our young people seems to be home schooling, which has long been a legal option in this country for anyone wishing to take advantage of it. Millions of individuals are great, but our society doesn't work without some level of government (e.g., we pay taxes so we can pay people to protect us from criminals, put out fires, teach our children, etc.,)
But I'm not sorry that I'm also willing to pay taxes for people who cannot take care of themselves. I would also pay extra to make sure that someone dying from a life-threatening condition can get help without going broke. And I don't consider that to be socialism. Do you?
jmw512
Ah the affliction of our time!
Both Maher and Legend choose to see only half the problem.
Each prefers to reduce the problem to their view of it.
I'm a teacher and a parent.
A larger percentage of my colleagues than one would hope are lazy and uininspired.
At the same time, many of the parents I talk to- parents of my 7 year old son's friends AND of my students either don't know
how to help their child learn, are too busy, or are too invested seeking their kid's approval to be able to provide genuine learning support.
Both Maher and Legend are right AND wrong. Right in their identification of a cause or reason for the problem. Wrong in their assertions that theirs is the proximate cause. As is usually the case in our time, there are contributing causes. not proximate ones.
If more people understood this truth, politics in the US would look fundamentally different than it does now
jmw
DeaconDrJones
Thank you!
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