It’s one thing to have controversial pizza toppings. It’s quite another to leave New York City and Chicago out of any list of top pizza destinations. Nathan Myhrvold and Francisco Migoya, authors of pizza bible Modernist Pizza, have crowned Portland, Oregon, as the nation’s best pizza city. They spent four years developing their 1,700-page book, which chronicles the history of pizza and examines some of the top pizza destinations. What made Portland stand out was the “huge, vibrant community of people making great pizza,” Myhrvold told CNN. He cited two joints, Apizza Scholls and Ken’s Artisan Pizza, as prime examples.

When asked about New York City’s reputation, Myhrvold didn’t mince words. “Most of the old-school New York ones aren’t that great, which is also part of our general finding around the world: famous old pizzerias are not up to their reputation,” he said.